Welcome back to the read-along! We’re back with Kaladin this week, but this time with Adolin and Veil. Shenanigans, weddings, and poignant amateur therapy, as well as a few answered questions… which may or may not make various readers happy. Come on in, and join the discussion!
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entirety of the series up until now—if you haven’t read ALL of the published entries of the Stormlight Archive, best to wait to join us until you’re done. Please white-text any references to the upcoming Interludes or the Dawnshard prologue. Thanks!
Chapter Recap
WHO: Kaladin
WHERE: Urithiru
WHEN: Day One, cont.
Kaladin suffers a depressive breakdown, but thankfully Adolin arrives to drag him to a tavern with him and Veil (and Radiant).
Overall Reactions
A: I almost can’t bring myself to spend much time on the opening scenes; they’re so realistic and painful if you’ve ever lived with depression.
He stood tall, like a commander should, and gave them the nod. The captain’s nod that said, “You run along, soldier. I have important things to be about, and cannot be bothered with frivolity.”
Nobody pushed him, though he wished that one of them would.
A: That desire to see your friends be happy, while at the same time, kind of wishing they would do it somewhere else. That fake smile as you pretend to be happy with them. That urge to be careful not to drag the people you love into your morass, not to hurt them with your pain. Not wanting to be with people—but wanting to, at the same time.
L: Yeah. This hits extremely close to home. Almost too close to home.
They’re all going to die. There’s nothing you can do about it.
You could never build anything that lasted, so why try? Everything decayed and fell apart. Nothing was permanent. Not even love.
Only one way out…
A: And then the collapse, when no one can see. In this case, it’s made far worse by stinking Moash’s words, worming their way into Kaladin’s mind, with their fatalistic gloom, urging him to despair. Honestly, I hate Moash so much. It was bad when he said this garbage in the first place, and it’s worse now when it comes shoving back in. I … I really can’t bring myself to dwell on this very long.
L: I’m gonna be honest. I might not be as talkative in this chapter as I am in most, for this very reason. This depiction is so real, so well handled, that it hit me in a way I wasn’t expecting. Seeing thoughts that you yourself have had in the past reflected in a fictional character you love can be thrilling sometimes, but in this case, it’s just… agonizing. I love Kaladin. I want him to see how loved he is, how positive an impact he’s had on the world and the people around him. But just like when I myself was in this position, he can’t. I know he can’t. He’s blinded by the haze of depression and I know how hard it is to break yourself out of that.
A: Fortunately for us as readers, the bright spots are made brighter by comparison, and Adolin is the brightest of bright spots in these pages. As is the ever-darling Sylphrena:
Adolin pushed his way in, a treasonous Syl on his shoulder. That was where she had gone? To fetch Adolin storming Kholin?
A: Who, of course, calls his bluff. That whole “I don’t want to see you, go away” thing we do? Nope. Not gonna fly.
L: Storms bless Adolin Kholin.
“I like being by myself,” Kaladin said.
“Great. Sounds awful. Today, you’re coming with me. No more excuses. I let you blow me away last week and the week before.”
L: As an extrovert who often does this with my introverted friends, I get this completely and I love to see it from Adolin—especially now.
A: And his persistence! This is not a one-off, it’s an ongoing effort. IMO, that’s what makes it work.
“Tell me honestly,” Adolin said. “With an oath, Kaladin. Tell me that you should be left alone tonight. Swear it to me.”
Adolin held his gaze. Kaladin tried to form the words, and felt of the ten fools when he couldn’t get them out.
He definitely shouldn’t be alone right now.
A: At least he’s still able to recognize this—at least when he’s pushed on it—which in itself is good. I find myself wanting to quote this whole page…
L: Yeah, I’m really glad that he hasn’t sunk so low as to not realize this, or be so apathetic as to lie to Adolin (and himself) about it.
“You don’t have to smile. You don’t have to talk. But if you’re going to be miserable, you might as well do it with friends.”
A: The best kind of friends to have are those who don’t do Expectations. I adore Adolin.
L: Or rather, that have Expectations, just reasonable ones. “My expectation is that we’re going to go out tonight and you don’t need to interact or do anything other than be in the presence of other people.”
A: You’re right, of course. There are expectations—just not the expectation that you’ll obviously be cheered up by being with them.
And then there’s Syl:
“Adolin?” Kaladin said as he changed. “Your first thought was to get Adolin?”
“I needed someone you couldn’t intimidate,” she replied. “That list at best includes three people. And the queen was likely to transform you into a crystal goblet or something.”
…
“Thank you,” Kaladin said softly, turning his eyes forward.
A: Syl is so wise, sometimes. A touch of humor, but solid truth.
L: She is a blessing. I’m so thankful that Kaladin has her.
Humans
Adolin’s favorite winehouse was called Jez’s Duty. He’d forced Kaladin to join him there on more than one occasion, and so the interior was familiar. Themed after a stormshelter—though no such thing was needed here in the tower—it had fabrial clocks on the walls that listed when a storm was happening in Alethkar, and held a daily vigil for the kingdom. An ardent even visited and burned glyphwards.
A: I like to pretend this is a nod to the Storm Cellar facebook group, originated from people who participate in the Tor rereads. Who knows, maybe it is?
Nobody bowed when [Adolin] entered; instead they cheered and raised cups. Adolin Kholin wasn’t some distant brightlord or general who sat in his keep and pronounced edicts, tyrannical or wise. He was the type of general who drank with his men and learned the names of every soldier.
A: I love the portrayal of Adolin here. He’s young for a highprince, perhaps, and maybe that’s part of why it works so well? Mostly, I’d guess, it’s sheer personality.
L: He’s a born leader, and one who genuinely cares for his subjects.
“Groom?” Kaladin asked.
“Wedding party?” Adolin said, waving toward the room of festive people. “For Jor?”
“Who?” Kaladin asked.
… as the groom himself passed by, Kaladin realized he did recognize the man. He was the house bouncer, an affable fellow.
Syl was riding on his shoulder.
…Jor showed up to introduce his new bride, Kryst, to Adolin.
A: This whole sequence makes me grin like a fool every time I read it. As y’all may or may not know, “Jor the bouncer” (from Shallan’s initial sleuthing foray back in Oathbringer) is a tuckerization for one of the beta readers. Between books, the real Jor got married to the real Kryst. It’s so much fun. The image of Syl riding around on Jory’s shoulder is one that will never not make me smile.
L: It was one heck of a fun wedding IRL, too, complete with a lightsaber duel.
A: And I missed it!! I just wasn’t able to get there. Truly a bummer.
Relationships & Romances
“Hey,” Veil said, putting her boots on the table with a thump. “The man said orange.”
L: You know, there are things I really dislike about Veil, but I appreciate the hell out of this. She’s not letting anyone pressure Kaladin into drinking something more intoxicating than he wants.
A: It’s interesting, isn’t it, seeing Veil protecting someone other than Shallan? Perhaps that’s part of her development over the past year; she’s not merely the persona that protects Shallan from painful stuff, she’s there to protect anyone she cares about. (Or not… but it works in this moment.)
(ETA – I realized later that this had been an aspect of Veil in the earlier books, too. Near the end of Oathbringer, for example, she was longing to be out in the streets protecting those who would be vulnerable in the chaos after the battle. Why did I never notice this before?)
“Well,” Veil said, “this is real fun and everything, but shouldn’t we be moving on to a more important topic?”
“Such as?” Adolin asked.
“Such as who we’re going to fix Kaladin up with next.”
Kaladin about spat out his drink. “He doesn’t need fixing up with anyone.”
“That’s not what Syl says,” Veil replied.
A: Yeah, but Syl just wants an excuse to sit on the headboard and kibitz.
Okay, no, she really does want to help. And maybe Kaladin was seeming to do better when he was in a relationship with Lyn; Adolin notes later that Kaladin has been “extra sulky” since the break-up. I suppose they have reason to think it might help; I’m less convinced.
L: While it’s true that it can help to have someone to lean on when you’re depressed, you really shouldn’t be using another person as a crutch to keep you upright. Kaladin needs to learn to stand on his own.
A: I think that’s why some of us are so adamant that Kaladin needs some personal change before getting into a real ship. It’s too easy to rest all your well-being in someone else, and then if they fail you, or something happens to them, you find out you hadn’t actually gotten better.
“Wait… no. Ask Shallan to explain [how babies come out]. She’ll love that.”
“Mmm,” the table said. “She changes colors. Like a sunset. Or an infected wound. Mmm.”
A: Sorry, I just had to include this for the lolz. Pattern is priceless.
“This is not a topic for gentlemen to discuss,” he said with an airy tone.
“I’m neither gentle nor a man,” Veil said. “I’m your wife.”
“You’re not my wife.”
“I share a body with your wife. Close enough.”
“You two,” Kaladin said, “have the strangest relationship.”
Adolin gave him a slow nod that seemed to say, You have no idea.
A: OUCH. I’m sorry, but how does an author even come up with this stuff? What an absolutely bizarre relationship, indeed.
L: I love it. Veil’s like the… the metamour in this unconventional little romance they have. It’s adorable.
A: I find it more painful than adorable, personally. It’s got to be so weird for Adolin; he married the woman he loves, but this other woman takes over half the time? And he really doesn’t love Veil as a woman, so she’s just… there, in his wife’s body, and it’s gotta be weird.
Bruised & Broken
“Shallan had a busy day, and we’re on Shattered Plains time, not Urithiru time. She wants a rest.”
It must be nice, Kaladin thought, to be able to retreat and become someone else when you get tired.
It was sometimes difficult to treat Shallan’s personas as three distinct people, but it was what she seemed to prefer. Fortunately, she tended to change her hair color to give the rest of them cues. Black for Veil, and she’d started using blonde for Radiant.
A: For now, apparently, we can tell who is talking by what color her hair is? I… guess…? The way Kaladin sees it, I’ll agree it sounds nice to just be someone else when you get tired. I seriously doubt it really works that way, though, even for Shallan. She hides with her other personalities, but I’m not convinced that she’s really getting any kind of rest from it.
L: Mental rest, maybe, but her physical body still needs rest, right? Or… does it? With Stormlight, maybe she doesn’t need real sleep anymore…
A: Well, that’s a point. I don’t remember—have we seen anyone use Stormlight to just go without sleep for extended periods? (Readers? Help?) Of course, their skills have grown in the last year, so it may be true even if we haven’t seen it yet.
“She is well enough,” Radiant said. “We’ve found a balance. A year now, without any new personas forming. Except…”
Kaladin raised an eyebrow.“There are some, half-formed,” Radiant said, turning away. “They wait, to see if the Three really can work. Or if it could crumble, letting them out. They aren’t real. Not as real as I am. And yet. And yet…” She met Kaladin’s eyes. “Shallan wouldn’t wish me to share that much. But as her friend, you should know.”
A: Yeah, we are so not done with this balancing act. It is an act.
L: I do love the fact that Radiant is telling Kaladin, though. It’s really good for friends to know what’s going on, so they can be prepared to help support the people they love when needed.
A: Right? It was fascinating to see Radiant do something she knew Shallan wouldn’t like, not merely something Shallan thought herself incapable of doing. You sort of expect it from Veil, but not Radiant.
“So,” Adolin said, “what’s going on? This is more than just what happened with Lyn.”
“I thought you said I didn’t have to talk.”
“You don’t.” Adolin took a sip, waiting.
A: This is both funny and heartwarming. Kaladin doesn’t have to talk… but he needs to, and Adolin is wise enough to just wait. And of course, Kaladin talks. Being relieved of duty is painful, but when Adolin objects to his father’s actions, Kaladin points out that Dalinar was right; as a trained surgeon himself, he recognizes the truth. And that finally brings him to the real problem: battle shock, or what we now call PTSD.
“There should be a way to help you. A way to make it so you can think straight.”
“I wish it were that easy,” Kaladin said. “But why do you care? What does it matter?”
“You’re my only bridgeboy,” Adolin said with a grin. “Where would I get another? They’ve all started flying away.” The grin faded. “Besides. If we can find a way to help you, then maybe… maybe we can find a way to help her.” His gazed drifted across the room, toward Veil.
A: Again with the mixture of humor and pathos; it’s a beautiful thing. I have to say, too, that this really is a good way to approach things from Adolin’s angle, whether it plays out or not. Kaladin has at least faced facts; he knows he needs real help, and when he’s got someone to talk to that he can trust, he’s (kind of) ready to search for solutions. Shallan, not so much. She says she’s fine, she’s got a good balance, everything is just hunky-dory—but Radiant just admitted that it’s not entirely true. Start with the person who’s willing to admit there’s a problem, and just maybe they can find a way to help others too.
“What does your surgeon’s knowledge say, Kal?” Adolin said. “What do I do?”
“I don’t know,” Kaladin said.
…
“Surely you can give some advice, Kal,” Adolin said.
“Let her know you care,” Kaladin said. “Listen to her. Be encouraging, but don’t try to force her to be happy. And don’t let her be alone, if you’re worried about her.…”
He trailed off, then shot Adolin a glare.
Adolin smirked. This hadn’t just been about Shallan. Damnation. Had he let Adolin outsmart him?
A: Excuse me, but BAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!! I love this so much.
L: Adolin’s just the best. No holds barred.
Weighty Words / The Knights Radiant
Kaladin didn’t have many squires left—none, unless you counted Dabbid and Rlain. Rock didn’t have a spren either, but he… had moved on to something else. Kaladin wasn’t sure what it was, but he didn’t call himself a squire.
A: Sigh. For all the obvious reasons, “none, unless you counted…” always seems to apply to the Dabbids and the Rlains, doesn’t it. None, unless you count these oddballs.
L: I’m really hoping to see some progress on Kaladin’s part on this count in this book.
Rlain would soon have a spren, and would finally be able to move on too.
A: As we saw a couple of weeks ago, this is Kaladin’s surefire plan. Now that he’s persuaded/ convinced/ commanded Yunfah to give Rlain a fair chance, they’ll obviously bond. Not that I doubt Rlain’s worthiness, of course; I think he has every qualification for a Radiant, and I certainly want that to happen. I just doubt the efficacy of Kaladin’s plan.
Dabbid had gone on the mission today to help Renarin deliver water and supplies to the townspeople. He’d never recovered from his battle shock, however, and didn’t have Radiant powers. He wasn’t so much a squire as someone Kaladin and the others looked after.
A: Oh, Dabbid. He reminds me of my son in some ways. (For those who don’t know, my son has Down Syndrome—which is obviously not the same as battle shock, I know, please don’t explain that to me.) People do care about him, and I appreciate that side of it. It just hurts when someone you love is always shrugged off with “well, that’s as much as he’ll ever be able to do.” It makes me … melancholy.
The rest had all ascended to at least the Second Ideal. That made them more than a squire, but not yet a full Radiant—having bonded a spren, but not yet having earned a Blade.
A: Hey, this conversation sounds familiar! Didn’t we have this very discussion recently? The Windrunners call you a squire the moment you manage to draw in the Stormlight, which (near as I can tell) you can do as soon as the First Ideal means the right thing to you. A spren can apparently start bonding with you any time then, but it always happens before you’ve reached the Second. You earn your Blade at the Third, and Plate at the Fourth.
His friends all had their own teams now.
A: All of them? Have all the original Words of Radiance Bridge Four members reached the Third Ideal? (Except those three.) Or can they have squires at the Second? Just when you think you had a lot of answers, you realize there are more questions!
“We need to get you a spren. Why hasn’t an order picked you up yet?”
Adolin shrugged. “I’m not a good fit, I guess.”
“It’s that sword of yours,” Kaladin said. “Shardbearers do better if they drop any old Shards. You need to get rid of yours.”
“I’m not ‘getting rid’ of Maya.”
“I know you’re attached to the sword,” Kaladin said. “But you’d have something better, if you became Radiant. Think about how it would feel to—”
“I’m not getting rid of Maya,” Adolin said. “Leave it, bridgeboy.”
A: I get frustrated with Kaladin when I read this, but then I have to remind myself: his only experience with dead-spren Shardblades is their screaming in his mind, and their trip through Shadesmar with Adolin’s deadeye. There’s just no way he understands the level of the bond between Adolin & Maya; to him it must look like the palest shadow of his bond with Syl, and well worth replacing.
And finally, back to Rock:
“You saved my life.”
“I made that choice because you are worth that sacrifice.” He reached across the table and rested his hand on Kaladin’s shoulder. “But it is no sacrifice unless I now go, as is right, to seek justice from my people. I would leave with your blessing. But I will leave either way.”
A: So Rock is going home, taking his wife and younger children. Concerned for their safety, especially with Moash out there, Kaladin & Rock agree that Skar and Drehy will go with them, both for protection, and to fly them so they don’t have to walk the whole way. And if they do meet Moash…
“Ha,” Rock said, standing. “He should try to come for me. That will let me get close enough to put hands on his neck and squeeze.”
“You don’t fight.”
“That? Is not fighting. Is exterminating. Even cook can kill rat he finds in his grain.” He grinned, and Kaladin knew him well enough to realize it was a joke.
A: Well… mostly a joke. I sure would love to see it happen.
L: You and me both.
“You gave me back my life,” he said. “Thank you for that, Kaladin, bridgeleader. Do not be sad that now I choose to live that life.”
“You go to imprisonment or worse.”
“I go to the gods,” Rock said.
A: This was a heart-rending scene. I really do hope we get that 4.5 novella about Rock…
L: From a story-teller’s perspective, it wouldn’t make sense not to tell us his story eventually. I’m confident that we’ll get it sooner or later.
He held up his finger. “There is one who lives here. One afah’liki. He is powerful god, but tricky. You should not have lost his flute.”
“I… don’t think Wit is a god, Rock.”
He tapped Kaladin’s head. “Airsick as always.”
A: LOL. I think Kaladin and Rock define “god” somewhat differently.
L: Well, seeing as how Rock calls spren “gods” too…
Secret Societies
“Pity someone murdered [Ialai],” Veil said. “I’d have enjoyed watching her squirm before Dalinar.”
“Murdered her?” Kaladin said. “What?”
“Yeah, someone offed her. One of our people, unfortunately. They must have been bribed by someone who wanted to see her dead. That’s a secret, by the way. We’re telling everyone she killed herself.”
A: Shallan doesn’t go into detail here, but she does recommend that Kaladin see Dalinar for the full report. Combined with her statement to Adolin a few chapters ago, it looks unlikely that Ialai killed herself—unless she was clever enough to make a suicide look like murder?
“Is Ialai Sadeas really dead?”
“Unfortunately. Father already has armies moving to the warcamps. Initial reports say her men have offered articles of surrender; they must have known this was coming.…” He shrugged. “Still makes me feel like I failed.”
“You had to do something. That group was getting too powerful, too dangerous, to leave alone.”
A: You may or may not see this as a valid reason for waiting this long, but apparently the idea is that as long as the highprinces in the warcamps didn’t look too strong, they could be more or less ignored. Then, with the rise of the Sons of Honor as an actual force under Sadeas leadership, things were getting dangerous. I’ll confess that Shallan’s interactions with them didn’t give me that “too powerful, too dangerous” feeling—but I also don’t know that I’d have wanted to see more words spent on building them up, if they’re surrendering and becoming a non-issue this early in the book.
L: Yeah, I find it hard to believe that they were so powerful, too. But I guess if she could make a legitimate claim to the throne, that in this time of upheaval, it could present instability that would be dangerous.
“I know. But I hate the idea of fighting our own. We’re supposed to be moving on to better things. Greater things.”
Says the man who killed Sadeas, Kaladin thought. That wasn’t common knowledge yet, so he didn’t speak it out loud in case someone was listening.
A: Well, there it is. Even now, a year after Adolin told Dalinar, it’s still not common knowledge. It’s unclear just who is included in the uncommon knowledge. Obviously: Adolin, Shallan, Dalinar, and now Kaladin. Likely: Navani, as Dalinar’s wife; Jasnah, as Alethi Queen; and… who else? I’m trying to figure out a logical group that would include Kaladin, and I can’t; why would he have been told? Because he’s Highmarshal of the Windrunners? I dunno.
L: I think this would be on a “need to know” basis, for sure.
What We Missed (In the Timeskip)
… A couple of lighteyed women in havahs, though they probably weren’t of high rank if they were visiting a winehouse frequented by darkeyes. Then again, Adolin was here. And things like nahn and rank had been… strangely less divisive this last year, under Jasnah’s rule.
A: Well, that’s an interesting hint. What has Jasnah been doing to reduce divisions between eye color and status rankings? Hopefully we’ll get more about this!
“He’s human,” Adolin said. “Half the city thinks he’s some kind of Herald reborn, but he’s only a man. He’s been wrong before. Terribly wrong.”
Dalinar killed Adolin’s mother, Kaladin thought. That news was out, spread wide. The city had all either read, listened to, or been told about Dalinar’s strange autobiography. Handwritten by the Blackthorn himself, it wasn’t quite finished, but drafts had been shared. In it Dalinar confessed to many things, including the accidental killing of his wife.
A: Wonder no more. At least, not about whether it’s out. Given Adolin’s brief comment here, and his general attitude toward his father displayed in this chapter, I think it’s safe to say that Adolin isn’t … shall we say, entirely reconciled to this development. (And for those who wanted to see that confrontation… while I can understand that desire, I personally think we’re going to get far more interesting insights by watching Adolin work through his reactions. YMMV.)
L: I’m glad to see this question answered here, and I’m curious to see how their interactions will play out…
Fabrial Technology & Spheres
One of my pleas is for artifabrians to stop shrouding fabrial techniques with so much mystery. Many decoy metals are used in cages, and wires are often plated to look like a different metal, with the express intent of confusing those who might try to learn the process through personal study. This might enrich the artifabrian, but it impoverishes us all.
A: Welp. This one doesn’t give us the kind of detail about actual fabrial technology that we’ve been getting so far. It does tells us about the state of the industry: very secretive, very guarded with their inventions and their craft secrets. When you stop to think about it, it’s true to reality: you make more money on a craft if you’re the only one who knows how to do some particular high-demand thing. It does slow the state of the art development, though. Looks like Navani is trying to set up more of a “think tank” approach, instead of each individual—or even each country—hoarding their own discoveries. I can certainly see both sides of the argument!
And that’s it for our contribution today! We’ll be leaving the speculation to you in the comments, so have fun and remember to be respectful of the opinions of others! Also, no spoilers for upcoming Interludes or the Dawnshard prologue, as per usual.
Alice is finished with the Dawnshard beta, and cannot wait to share reactions with you all. It’s excellent.
Lyndsey is missing her faire family dearly. For the next two months in these bylines, she’ll be giving some shout-outs to fellow local performers or vendors who could really use the support. This week, check out Auntie Arwen’s Spices, for hand-made herbal blends (some of which are made from historical recipes) that will simply knock your socks off! If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or Instagram.
The repeated mentions of trying to get people to ‘share knowledge’ and collaborate on Navani’s part really seem to indicate a tendency towards becoming a bondsmith – to unite, instead of divide. With the message from (presumably) the Sibling the other week, I think it’s a pretty safe bet she’ll join the same order as her husband after somehow, hopefully, resolving the ethical concerns of fabrial technology.
A chapter of tears, and love for Adolin, who acted in just the right way to help Kaladin when he needed it. Also, finally openly addressing they don’t have treatment issues for mental sicknesses, and Adolin endeavoring to find a treatment… for Kaladin, but also the girl he loves who so desperately needs help.
Rock’s gonna go back to the Peaks looking for justice and they’re going to make him King. He’ll probably bond a peakspren and become a Stoneward and then kill some Fused and take back Cultivations Perpendicularity. Then he’ll visit Urithiru and say “Airsick lowlander! You really thought you would never see this one again??”
I loved the shout back to Words of Radiance, when Kaladin was in prison. I’ve just listened to that chapter so it was fresh in my mind:
And here in chapter 12:
Is it indicative of a return to military leadership for Kaladin?
@@.-@ Ulim – That would be truly be lovely, though I don’t know about the ‘him killing’ part… that’s what he’s in trouble for in the first place.
@5 Allinka – Good catch!! I like the parallelism there. It’s very much indicative that Kaladin achieved the same level of respect and honor in his name (as the first Windrunner, eventual Highmarshal, and hero of the people) that Dalinar had as the “only honorable Lighteyes” at that point in WoR.
My comment got removed, but I am incredibly, incredibly, bored of this. It feels like Sanderson ran out of steam and the characters are treading water. I will probably wait to pick this one up.
@@@@@#1 We may know it, but that doesn’t mean it can or should be glossed over. We can’t skip to where they are suddenly better. This chapter did a good job of accurately handling the consequences of what both characters are going through. We’re getting the book a chapter per week and there is progress, just not as fast as it will be when the book actually comes out. These are being set up as major plot points – if they aren’t fixed by the end, then we can be disappointed, but somehow I predict better of Sanderson.
Please bear in mind when reading these chapters that they’re not meant to be read like this. I’ve chosen to read them as I can’t hold off my curiosity, but I really don’t think it’s a good idea to release them like this. When slowed to a crawl like this, with a week between chapters, it makes it seem repetitive or slow-paced. But if you were actually sitting down reading this book, the chapters would zip by and you wouldn’t be taking the time to analyze every little thing that happens or dwelling on a character arc that seems to be dragging or repetitive. So yes, Kaladin’s depression seems to be taking up a lot of narrative space, but I can almost guarantee you that you wouldn’t react the same if you had the entire book to read at once.
Why comments from people who are tired of Kaladin and Shallan are getting removed?
My favorite chapter to date! All this character love is what I need in my life. Also Adolin needs a friggin monument to his glory
Sanderson, you old so and so, you finally made me like adolin. What. A. Chapter. This is the first time i have wished i was reading the book proper cuz this would of hit like a ton of bricks if it had all the build up to get here all at once.
Brandon definitely has a style for saying things jokingly that turn out to be true. In that vain the comment Rock made about not seeing Kaladin again in this world makes me think maybe they’ll meet again in Shadesmar or something like that?
Not having seen the removed comment, I can’t say anything about that one in particular. However, I’d suggest that courteous expression of one’s opinion will go a long way…
@10. Kell
Probably because they have become repetitive enough that they no longer add anything new to the discussion, and they have a tendency to clutter up the chat. I appreciate that the tone of this discussion has been generally civil so far, but I do think it is more interesting when people talk about Singer culture, fabrial technology, and the implications of the narrative on our knowledge of spren bonds, than when people spend multiple paragraphs discussing the stagnation of character development that seems to be more a matter of literary preference than objective flaws in the narrative. I understand that this is just my opinion, and every person has his or her own, but would it not be better to reserve this discussion for praise rather than criticism?
On that note, did Shallan’s changing her hair color remind anyone of the Royal Locks? The description just felt really familiar.
People might want to remember that Renarin is both a healer and an Illuminator whose power is specifically to show people their best possible selves. I think that he can help Dabbid, and Dabbid will become a Truthwatcher squire.
Which of course leads to Renarin maybe helping Kaladin and/or Shallan? (Apparently this has become the PTSD volume of the Stormlight Archive.)
Brandon at least feels the need to explain why Adolin hasn’t become a Radiant. He had to know that people in-story would wonder about that.
Kaladin says, “I am a surgeon.” Not “was” a surgeon. Hello, foreshadowing.
Rock needs to put arrows through both of Moash’s eyes. Aside from any other reasons, it would go against the overused “Climactic battle of two enemies who used to be friends” trope. And yes, I’m pretty sure that would kill him despite the Honorblade. Especially if Skar follows up with a Shardblade through the spine.
@2, Anon:
Except the Sibling is asleep, and how would it manipulate a fabrial?
Come to think of it, did anyone mention in the previous comment thread: the person insisting Navani stop making fabrials told her that using a fabrial?
Re: moderation–let me reiterate what’s been said before regarding these discussions, so we’re all on the same page:
Thanks to all who’ve done their best to keep this conversation civil, but let’s be clear about our moderation guidelines: you don’t have to like a given book, or the chapter being discussed. You don’t have to agree with the opinions or interpretations expressed by the OP or in the comments. But if you want to take part in the discussion on this site, you have to be civil in the way you interact with others, and your comments have to be *constructive in tone.*
Explaining why you dislike an author’s choice or some element of the text is fine if you can do so constructively and without derailing the conversation–repeatedly harping on what you do not like or the fact that you’re bored isn’t helpful, and it does nothing to add to the discussion or other people’s perspective on the topic at hand, which is the purpose of these threads. Now let’s move on and get the discussion back on track–thanks, all!
I will admit when I saw this was a Kaladin chapter, I dreaded reading it, but it turned out to be a really good one. So I enjoyed my read this week, though I have comments I think not everyone will agree with. Obviously.
I love the Kaladin/Adolin friendship, but I do wish it would stop being so one-sided. Always, it is “Adolin takes care of Kaladin and makes sure Kaladin is taken care of”. It has been this way since WoR. I want the reverse. I want Kaladin demonstrating he can be a good friend too. I know the rules of narration are Kaladin and Shallan are the broken heroes and Adolin is the rock they lean on, but as a reader, I just found this representation is less and less realistic and just… over-used? You can’t always hammer the nail on the same coffin. It is good to change. Sometimes. So while I really loved the chapter, I really want to read Kaladin being there *for* Adolin providing Adolin ever needs it.
I do not think the chapter illustrates Adolin as a good “leader”: he cares about his people, so his people treat him with respect, a respect Dalinar never got. Being well-liked isn’t the same as being a good leader… one can be popular without being able to lead a team, so I disagree Adolin being greeted with cheers means he is a great leader. It means he is well-loved and popular, but that’s quite different. On the reverse, the chapter illustrates how Adolin isn’t being a good soldier nor a good military leader because both Kaladin/Dalinar agree he shouldn’t be drinking with his men. Even Adolin notes Kaladin behaves differently because he is a soldier at heart thus implying he… isn’t one. In other words, Adolin shouldn’t be *out there*. Yes, the men love him for noticing them, but I think the gig of being a military authoritative leader is you need them to obey you, not to think they can second-guess you because they think they are your equal. At least, I mean, in the society/world they live in. Even in real-life, team leaders cannot afford to have team members not do the assigned work because they want to do something else instead or think they can get away with it. The initiative is welcome within given boundaries. I feel Adolin has no boundaries, so I have to agree with Kaladin and Dalinar here. He shouldn’t be doing it.
I hate the Veil/Radiant/Shallan/Adolin relationship. It is awful and I am flabbergasted everyone, in-world, treats it as nothing else than a nice adorable quirk. It is awful to Adolin, it is awful to everyone involved. It is even more awful Shallan spends MORE time being Veil than… herself. And yes, it is a balancing act that isn’t working, but Shallan pretends work because admitting it does not work would either cause her lost or force her to deal with herself, once and for all. Still, it makes for an interesting narrative, but I SO do not want Veil/Radiant/Shallan to be the endgame! I want Shallan to be Shallan again without Veil and Radiant. Just her. It is going to be interesting to read, this is for sure.
I understand why Kaladin asks Adolin to unbind his Blade. From a Radiant’s perspective, this is what he needs to do if he wants to become a Radiant. It isn’t clear, with Adolin’s response, if he wants to become one or if he just not cares. I took it Adolin didn’t care. So long as he is doing something to help Shallan and Kaladin, he does not care what his status is. I felt this is a missed opportunity for additional development and to question furthermore what makes some people being picked over others.
On Adolin knowing about his mother… well…. I WANTED to read this confrontation AND Adolin going through the process of dealing with it. I didn’t like this twist. I will rank it as yet another time where Sanderson had an opportunity to get Adolin outside of “Mr Perfect” world and make act/react like a real human being but skipped over it. Instead, Adolin is all rainbows and unicorns, once again. Sigh. I’ll never reconcile myself with how Sanderson chose to depict his character in such a… simplistic manner. So Adolin is a Unicorn Reborn and is pissing Rainbows as he goes while shining like a perfect Beacon of Perfection? I guess I just do not see what is the purpose of choosing this representation. The only aspect of it that pleased me was Adolin no longer obeying Dalinar, no longer cares about the codes, and is obviously angry at this father, but it is so mild. It is barely there.
So, I feel we are a far shot away from real characterization here. Adolin still is a Gary-Stu and it saddens me, but it was expected. I love the chapter nonetheless. I just don’t think I’ll ever agree with Sanderson choosing this portrayal for Adolin when he could have taken his characters down much more interesting paths than Gary-Stuisming his way into the narrative.
I know most readers really enjoy this characterization, but it makes me sigh every time as it reminds me the character Adolin could have been, but never will be. I agree to disagree with everyone here, this is just something that was very close to me.
Rabid Reader, I think criticism is very important.
@20 Kell: It is how the opinions are being written… they need to be constructive. Simple comments such as: “I hated this chapter because it was a Kaladin chapter” can go on Reddit, but in here?
Also, I forgot to say I felt for Kaladin when he feared being removed from the battlefield meant he was as good as Dabby. Not that he meant it in a bad way, but the thought this might be where he is heading, the idea what he has CANNOT heal, this certainty, I relate to him here. I rarely relate to Kaladin, but this one, I get.
Kaladin does not want this faith for himself and I understand, especially since he has Dabbid as an example. I do think Adolin is right in saying Kaladin is not done, he just needs to think of how he can find the right balance for himself.
Loved this new chapter!! Adolin getting to shine on his role, insight into his continuing bond with Maya, how he’s navagating his relationship with the Shallan-collective, his relationship with Kal, hints at his reaction to in-world Oathbringer. Awesome and necessary character-chapter.
And Rock!! Oh no!! We better get at LEAST an interlude with him in future. I demand it.
Kal’a depression is written so well it hurts me. I want to step in-world, help find him some meds, explain what therapy is, and get him help. I love that Sanderson isn’t shying away from this. Kaladin has overcome being a child soldier, watching countless people die, slavery, bridge four, betrayals, inner-conflict,.PTSD, and so much else. But the depression still haunts and wrecks him. And that’s so true to life. Usually if an author depicts depression it exists for a book at most and then we move on and forget it was ever a thing. I’m glad Kal’s is being explored. A lot of people, including myself, will never “recover” from depression. It’s an ongoing battle and it’s tough. Interested to see how Kal progresses.
“
A: For now, apparently, we can tell who is talking by what color her hair is? I… guess…? The way Kaladin sees it, I’ll agree it sounds nice to just be someone else when you get tired. I seriously doubt it really works that way, though, even for Shallan. She hides with her other personalities, but I’m not convinced that she’s really getting any kind of rest from it.
L: Mental rest, maybe, but her physical body still needs rest, right? Or… does it? With Stormlight, maybe she doesn’t need real sleep anymore…
A: Well, that’s a point. I don’t remember—have we seen anyone use Stormlight to just go without sleep for extended periods? (Readers? Help?) Of course, their skills have grown in the last year, so it may be true even if we haven’t seen it yet.”
Quick comment on this: I have DID as well and am as such also a we! It actually does work that way – if one of us is super stressed/mentally drained and someone else starts fronting we get a nice little boost/a reset. Physically it doesn’t rest the body, ofc, but it does let the stressed/tired parties rest and recover. This is something Veil does for Shallan quite frequently and quite well.
It’s not “explicitly” canon but from comments in TOWK and WoR regarding Jasnah always working late etc, I’m convinced she was feeding on Stormlight to push her body and stay awake longer. I get the feeling this is probably like pewter dragging, though. You can only push your body so far, even by supernatural means, until it crashes.
I suspect Shallan’s wellness is not about the existence of Radiant and Veil, and I think they have fohnd a balance and mutual understanding. (I’m really hoping Brandon doesn’t push for an “integration=greater health” idea. Plenty of systems work very well, and indeed better, as several personas rather than an individual. Brandon has come out and confirmed Shallan has DID, and has used a beta reader to help with that depiction, so hopefully the Shallan-collective is here to stay (this representation is as important, if not more so, than Kal’s depression, for example. DID is so demonised/misunderstood in media)). I think her mental wellness stems from PTSD and further secrets she has buried and can’t acknowledge yet.
Finally, I love Adolin and Veil’s relationship. They bounce off each other very well. And I’m not super fond of the implication he’s somehow struggling/getting screwed out of his relationship with Shallan. He was aware she was plural when he married her, knew Veil and Radiant, and has cleared taken steps to form a relationship that works for all of them. It’s kinda like he’s in a polycule tbh. Shallan is his wife, and their relationship is romantic. But Veil is there for Shallan and she and Adolin do not have romantic intentions towards one another, but they do have an understanding, and it’s interesting to see the obvious work they’ve both put in during the timeskip.
I’m really excited to see more character dynamics and moments like this as the chapters progress!
“I’m trying to figure out a logical group that would include Kaladin, and I can’t; why would he have been told?”
Maybe Adolin just felt that Kaladin deserved to know because they were friends, and Kaladin had saved his life on multiple occasions. From this chapter we can tell that Adolin already feels its unjustified for Kaladin to be taken off duty, and he is personally taking Kaladin out for drinks to cheer him up and has done so already. I don’t think it’s unreasonable that Adolin would want to confide in Kaladin. Especially because Kaladin is probably the person Adolin is closest to after Shallan and Renarin at this point (except maybe Navani)—he is struggling with revelations about his father, he was never super close with the rest of his family (again except Navani), and he’s lost a lot of his Alethi friends due to his father’s political shenanigans (which was a good reason, if any, to lose friends, but still, Adolin needs close friends). He might even have felt that he needed someone on the outside of his family—even Shallan—to talk to.
I actually cheered when Adolin opened the door. I’ve been waiting for them to have “guys time” since WoR. (Joking around while entering Kholinar does not count) Then Veil showed up at the bar “Oh.” I like Shallan, but in past chapters like Stormshelter in OB her presence makes Kaladin a third wheel. Sanderson did a good job at keeping the interactions friendly. Also there was a good deal of showing that team Honor were all on the same page and had stopped keeping the old secrets from each other. FINALLY!
I definitely teared up when Rock said he was leaving. I don’t for a minute believe that we’ll never see him again. But Kaladin might not, and that’s still sad. Won’t he make us one more pot of stew before he goes?
Adolin Kholin is a national treasure.
This was a great chapter. Gepeto, I understand that you want to see more of his friends supporting Adolin but I find this depiction very realistic. I have different friendships to fill different needs, and I imagine Adolin is the same. We have seen Renarin support him in earlier books, for example. My heart breaks for him with Shallan, though, because I don’t think he wants multiple wives. It was a part of Shallan he accepted because loves her but not a part he liked; I think many of us feel this way about aspects of our spouses (and they feel the same about us!). Working on those traits is a way we show love and respect to our partners as well as improve ourselves. I hope Shallan shows some improvement in this book because she is breaking my heart, and Adolin’s too I believe.
I’m really hopeful that Kaladin will find some healing in the healing of others; I feel like Adolin’s words are foreshadowing this.
I’m interested to see what happens with Rock here. Its hinted that he’s not a Windrunner, and we think peakspren are the spren for Stonewards. Do we think he’s going to bond a peakspren when he goes home, or could he already be bonding one? Maybe it came with his family? Kinda wishing we had gotten the Rock novella now, though how the story would be rearranged around not having Dawnshard I don’t know.
I often find dialogue in novels to be stunted and unrealistic, just not the way people really act around one another. In his earlier novels I felt this way about some of Brandon’s dialogue too, most notably how hard he was trying to pass Shallan off as “clever”, while her quips ranged from truly amusing to just cringey, but this chapter really goes a long way showing how much growth we’re getting in these characters and in Brandon’s writing.
These interactions between these three (five, counting Veil/Radiant) are quickly becoming my favorite comfort food. They don’t often get to just sit and be friends with all the world shattering events going on around them. More and more I can see real parallels between how they act around each other and my own, true to life experiences with close friends.
Saying goodbye to Rock right now is heartbreaking. I can’t imagine Kal is going to take this well in his current state. Rock needed to save him, and he’s going to take responsibility for that, and all the guilt that comes with it.
TL;DR I loved this chapter, and Adolin is quickly securing his place as my favorite character in the series to date. I’m super worried about our mains Kal and Shallan, but at the same time I can’t wait to see where they go from here.
The early Kaladin chapters didn’t work for me at all. But the last two Kaladin chapters really did work for me. It feels very much overdue. Kaladin has been trying to shoulder too much for too long – he’s can’t be Atlas, holding up the sky by himself. Dalinar essentially gave him a wake-up punch. Painful but necessary.
It’s nice when you have an idea of how the story could progress only to be wrong (in a good way) about the details. I expected Adolin and/or Shallan to get involved to help Kaladin a bit just not in this particular setup – which was great. I’m guessing the rest of Part 1 will be about him finding a new direction? I’ve thought this before but it’s rather clearly shown here that Kaladin is overly specialised and focused about being a soldier and it would probably help him to broaden his outlook a bit.
“Agony Aunt” Adolin is the shining MVP of this chapter. He’s often overlooked but none of this chapter should be surprising for anyone who has been paying attention. The chapter is also a good example of how to “show” a lot about a character without using their viewpoint, something I think should have been done more often in previous books. Meanwhile, I’m detecting some tension between Adolin and Dalinar here, at least from Adolin’s side. If he’s willing to say that much, what is he feeling inside?
Well, I also think Adolin’s characterization isn’t very interesting. Nice guy, yes, but how is this interesting? He’s so perfect and generally used as a “comfort character” for Kaladin and Shallan. If he had his own issues to solve, he would be more interesting character. Right now he’s Kaladin’s side-kick.
And given how uninteresting Kaladin is now…well, I don’t like to see other characters through Kaladin povs. All interesting characters were pushed into the background and ignored.
@25 Evelina. Except Adolin has no other friendships to fill other needs. His relationship with Renarin is 100% biased towards supporting Renarin: it is one-sided too. Not one-sided in the sense Renarin does not care for Adolin, he does, more in the sense Adolin provides support and Renarin asks for it. It has never been in another other way, at least not yet.
So while I loved the chapter, a part of me, really wanted Adolin to have real-friends. I have no doubt Kaladin is his friend, but their relationship is 100% Adolin supports him and Kaladin leans on. The same goes for Shallan and it breaks my heart. I hate that he is this person and I feel the fact he always is the person is making his characterization less deep, more superficial.
I do not think Adolin needs to accept Shallan spends more time being Veil and Radiant than herself. No one needs to accept this. It is unfair to ask him to accept this: this goes beyond mere quarrel between spouses. Shallan needs to sort herself or Adolin needs to break off the marriage, but this relationship cannot continue as it is currently portrayed.
@29 Kell. It feels the same to me. Adolin has no… real purpose other than being perfect and I am really not digging into his characterization. And I love Adolin, I just love the idea Adolin actually has layers, but he never does, as far as the narrative goes.
Oh Rock
I am going to miss his thoughtfulness and wisecracks and insights and just his niceness!
Though I am sure we will see him again, it likely wont be as much in this book and it wont be his repartee with bridge 4 and I will miss that…
Didn’t Renarin show Adolin his idealized image at the beginning of Oathbringer when Adolin was at a low point? I always read that as emotional support from Renarin to Adolin. I think it’s also impossible to say what goes on off screen. I would say over the past year I generally support my husband more than he supports me due to a medical issue that was causing various challenges for him. That doesn’t discount the fact that he still provides me with vital support when I need it. Relationships aren’t 50/50 at any given time, and every person needs different things at different points in their lives.
I really appreciate the commentary that’s given here, but seriously every single chapter Shallan is in both Alice and Lyndsey make really hurtful comments about Dissociative Identity Disorder, at the same time as talking with praise and thoughtful meaning about Depression and PTSD. I hope it’s not too much to ask for, but going forward could you two please maybe think about the fact that what Shallan is dealing with is also a real mental health disorder, and readers of the books may well have it—as may well readers of your comments. Shallan is obviously not functioning well, and her DID is very much not under control, but there are real people married to spouses with DID and I don’t think being told over and over in your commentary how awful, miserable, difficult, weird, upsetting that is, etc, is exactly nice.
Does anyone else think Adolin would make as good a Stoneward as he would an Edgedancer? I know if he bonds Maya he’d be an Edgedancer, but in the context of this chapter he hasn’t even manifested the powers of an Edgedancer squire yet. Even holding Maya, he should be able to spend enough time with the Edgedancers to manifest something if he was going to be one. Obviously I could be completely wrong, but Dalinar was able to use stormlight while he still held Oathbringer in the 1st book. We don’t have any actual Stonewards right? Heralds aren’t the same as Radiants. So there is no one for him to squire for or learn the ropes from. Maybe he’ll be the first Stoneward in the new world. He was also on the field at the end of Oathbringer when Dalinar was looking for all 10 surges. Do the Heralds really count for this?
Now that I’ve said my peace this is obviously a stretch. I’m probably missing something obvious with this theory but Brandon seems to make each new radiant more interesting thank the last. Examples include Lift who can eat food for stormlight, Seth in white, with a black smoking sword, and his cognitive shadow floating behind him. So, the idea that Adolin is just a random Edgedancer doesn’t fit the bill for me, but making Adolin the 1st Stoneward, and have him also bond with Maya so he wields two swords seems really cool and unique. Just my wishful thinking, and would love to know if anyone else as similar thoughts.
Either way loved this chapter.
I also loved this chapter. I know a lot of people in this thread have felt frustrated about Shallan/Veil/Radiant – and about Kaladin’s struggles (or his one sided relationship with Adolin). But from my perspective their struggles have been one of the reasons that I have connected with this book so much. I struggle with my own mental health and Kaladin/Shallan’s feelings of trapped hopelessness, that feeling of treading water, not being able to break free despite how much *everyone* wants you to, feels super real to me (especially in 2020). I don’t even feel that frustrated by the Shallan/Veil/ thing – to me it’s just her way of coping with a serious mental health issue and it’s not healthy, stable or sustainable, but it’s simply all she has in her for now. I was getting lost in their experiences, so seeing how Adolin supported them was pretty emotional too.
I think the characters will progress as they get swept into the story, and as things pick up in the next few weeks (especially after the prev chapter comments about the war getting dangerous). But for now, I wonder if Brandon wants people to feel that frustration in the calm before the storm. Or for people to know that each reader probably knows real humans who feel like Kaladin/Shallan, so this is a glimpse into their experiences.
@32 Evelina: Except, Adolin never had a low point… Renarin healed his wrist and accidentally showed him a vision. We could several scenes of Adolin having for the sole purpose to support others. I love the character, but I am starting to feel he is wearing thin in terms of development. I understand support and care do not need to always be equal, but so far, in the story, we have always seen Adolin provide it. The reverse just does not exist.
It is the same with Adolin reaction to events. He is perfect. He makes no mistake. He behaves perfectly. He reacts perfectly: nothing can ever impact him. His father killed his mother? Big deal. His wife is three people? Big deal, he is concerned for her, not for himself. Nothing is ever a big deal with Adolin.
I just stopped feeling this was realistic. No one is that perfect except one-dimensional side-kicks and even then, most prominent side-kick are usually given far more layers than Adolin gets here. So he is perfect. It is great Kaladin has someone so perfect to take care of him when he needs ot.
Where do we go from there? We keep on reading Adolin being perfect because others need him to be perfect? I love the chapter, but how perfect Adolin just does not work out for me. I want to love his character, but there is very little interesting development for him. He just… there to be pretty. I had wish Sanderson would have wanted to explore his less pretty side or had seen fit to just give him one.
While it’s never a good idea to guess where Brandon is taking things, I do think it is very likely that Kaladin’s PTSD is misdiagnosed. I mean, he’s been clinically depressed since childhood, and while losing the king hurt, i think it was more him seeing both sides as friends that hurt most. In other words, for Kaladin, the spear, and later battle, was a way of coping with his depression…until he saw that it couldn’t help him. Does that make sense?
Adolin is such an interesting character to me. I feel like so many readers dismiss characters that are just…normal good people. Adolin is just a normal good person. Evi felt that way too, and people complained about her. I guess it can be hard to see people that are just basically good with no ‘reason’ to be that way as legitimate? I disagree with the comments that he is portrayed as utterly perfect, to me he’s just portrayed as a decent guy and trying his best (with plenty of flaws depicted in the narrative, even if they aren’t plot relevant) which is a real thing many real-life people are. More epic fantasy needs average joes who find purpose in just supporting their friends and don’t ask for much. It’s fair if some people find him boring, but that’s completely subjective. To say he’s a poorly written character because of it is just sad imo
@38 Airborne. Evi was a minor side character. Adolin has far too much prominence to keep on being depicted in this manner. If he had Evi’s importance to the narrative, then it would work, if he had to say Skar’s importance to the narrative it would work, but we spend some time with Adolin. After a while, this “I am always perfect” depiction is wearing thin.
In other words, Adolin is too prominent for the paper-thin characterization he is getting. A character of his important needs to have… better, stronger characterization than just being perfect for everyone. Even good normal people have problems and flaws. Adolin has exhibit none which would be fine, if he were more minor, but he isn’t, so he reads like a Gary-Stu, IMHO.
@36 Gepeto – “It is the same with Adolin reaction to events. He is perfect. He makes no mistake. He behaves perfectly. He reacts perfectly: nothing can ever impact him. His father killed his mother? Big deal. His wife is three people? Big deal, he is concerned for her, not for himself. Nothing is ever a big deal with Adolin.”
Uh… he killed Sadeas, and struggled with that action and what it’s consequences meant for himself and the Codes for an entire book… he’s had internal struggle about what being King would mean and if he was worthy to lead… he has had terrible success with the women he’s courted… he made a stupid decision out of pride that almost cost him his life in the arena if Kaladin hadn’t jumped in…
I don’t at all see how your perspective of Adolin being this one-layered perfect character is valid…
Everyone who is struggling with this weekly release has clearly never read any manga, lol.
@@@@@ 25 Evelina; @@@@@ 23 Udy Kumra
Excellent comments
@@@@@ 29 Kell,
While I agree that Adolin wasn’t that interesting before, I think his characterization is fine. I’ve always thought of him as “rich princeling,” but that has clearly changed throughout the novels. Overall, I think Maya and his relationships with Shallan, Dalinar, and Renarin will be his journey in this novel, I imagine. This is again also only chapter 12. We are still in the build-up phase. That being said, I’m not sure where you get “generic” comfort character until this specific chapter. He is in a relationship with one and has only just become friends with the other.
Which characters do you enjoy?
@@@@@ 30 Gepeto,
I think Evelina laid out pretty well what happened to the rest of Adolin’s friends. Why wouldn’t those three be his closest friends? They’ve went through life and death situations and they’ve treated each other as equals. I also can’t think of any other character in-book that would be, other than Drehy and Scar. If you can think of one or two, then maybe you would have a point.
I think it is a bit funny that you’ve always wanted more characterization about Adolin, but at the first signs that Brandon is really building up to that, other than Sadeas, you think he’s making him boring! There is no way that Sanderson is skipping everything in the time skip, he will surely revisit the moment that Adolin “discovers” Radiant and Veil, as well as Dalinar’s biography. And Adolin will surely get a Maya moment.
Kaladin needs to spend time with his parents healing people,would help him reach his next ideal.
@41:
Mangas are meant to be read that way and are, in fact, written that way. This is a novel. It is not written to be serialized like this. Brandon and Tor might think they’re giving the fanbase a treat, but they might be doing more harm than good. An opinion, once formed, is hard to change. So far, I see a lot of complaints that might not have existed if the person had sat down and read the book at once. The experience could unfairly negatively color a person’s opinion that might have been positive under normal circumstances.
@40 bridge4; Where are his struggles? Where are his layers? Where are his moments where he is crippled by the events? Where are his hurdles? When did Adolin even feel pain, sorrow, hardships? Where are the passages longer than one sentence illustrating those even exist?
I love Adolin and I loved this chapter, but I am worried Mr. Perfection is all we are ever going to read for him in this series. the fact Sanderson chose not to write the Dalinar/Adolin confrontation is telling me he has no intentions to develop Adolin much further than having him be so perfect he becomes the perfect knight to Maya all while bursting perfection all along with him. Why skip on an event that would have given Adolin much-needed layers?
Hence if Adolin does have layers, where are they in the actual story? When has he failed? When has he ever been anything less but perfect? When did he ever make a real mistake with consequences?
It is mind-numbing to have such an important character have so little… development. He is great, lovable, but as a reader, he is uninteresting. He has very little dramatic potential. Oh, he had plenty, but each and every time, Sanderson chose not to go down this road.
He has Maya, but how can Maya be interesting if Adolin never gets layers? Hardships? Pain? Struggles? If it is easy because Adolin is so perfect it is easy, then why read it?
@41 Key. Because this is no characterization! He skipped the moment Dalinar told Adolin about Evi! He skipped the Number One character-defining moment Adolin could have gotten in RoW. He skipped it! Now, there is nothing left to hope reading with his character other than being so nice Maya reawakens. That’s not powerful, gut-wrenching or emotion-filled, that’s basically Adolin being perfect.
@19
Interesting points. I share your sentiment that it would be nice to see Adolin and Kaladin’s friendship as less one-sided. As the book progresses, I’m confident we’ll see more of the bromance from previous books in the series. This is just chapter 12, and there’s dozens more to come.
However, one point which I particularly disagree is your opinion of Adolin’s leadership. In military science, I was taught that caring about one’s subordinates is a hallmark of positive leadership. While receiving obedience is more convenient, earning loyalty from one’s subordinates via trust is more reliable and effective. A team who is obedient mostly because they fear the leader’s punishment is less motivated to achieve objectives, especially when under pressure or fatigue. A team who is loyal to their leader because the leader respects and cares about the team will go through hell and back because they trust their leader to always support and protect them. Earning my teams’ trust and respect is my preferred approach, and it always works for me even when I’ve had to lead a team comprised of multinationals across 3 different time zones while under time crunch. Heck, I remember having to assuage their fearful panick while I myself wanted nothing more than to get more than 4 hours of sleep per night for at least a week.
I do see your point that leaders should not fraternize with their subordinates. However, fraternization often refers to instances where a leader spends time off duty with a minority of subordinates, such as an NCO or junior officer drinking with some privates or corporals, increasing the likelihood of favoritism and clouded judgment. For me, I don’t interpret Adolin casually mingling with all of his subordinates and ruling subjects as fraternizing, especially since he didn’t get drunk. It’s more like a physical display of open-door policy (approachability and accessibility is another positive leadership trait).
Anyway, I’m looking forward to future chapter releases and eventually the full book release! It’s gonna be tough to stay productive After November
@@@@@ Kayblazing I mean Adolin in first three books. This is a lot. He isn’t in the build-up phase.
Don’t know. Kaladin and Shallan became boring and over-done.
Dalinar was pushed into the background. Venli is…again, I don’t know, she had only one chapter in this book.
Personally, I love these characters and trust that we’ll get Venli/Dalinar/Jasnah/Szeth in later chapters once the state of Kal/Shallan after the year jump is fleshed out. Part one is setting the scene, telling us what we’re working with in regard to the main two Radiants we’ve been following so far. He’s delving deeper into their various mental issues and, more than that, the struggles that come with a person and all their various nuances and flaws taking on a Nahel Bond.
You don’t just get super powers. There’s so much more to it than that, the Bond requires incredibly difficult things for each order, and the spren seem to pick those that would have the most trouble going through those steps to bond with. Imagine Kal with a Cryptic? He doesn’t have secrets, he confronts his past to a fault. The Ideals are supposed to force a person to dig deep into whatever dark corners they don’t want to acknowledge. People aren’t good at that.
I feel like by moving away from Kal and Shallan now, in the deep water before their 4th ideal, Brandon would be doing a disservice to the characters, the world, the magic system, and the reader. We need to go on this journey with them. These chapters are as much about the Bond and what it means to take it as they are about the people themselves.
I wonder if maya being bonded/having the gem is blocking her from being revived.
id be curious as to at the finale of this book during a climatic scene the gem gets destroyed and she comes back to life and Adolin bonds her then.
I just want to say that I love this chapter and also Adolin. Seeing characters who are struggling with mental illness get support from friends is so, so important. This chapter was just so… wholesome. And to echo what other people have said, relationships of any kind are rarely 50/50. It’s important, yes, that the support goes both ways, but sometimes one party in the relationship isn’t in a place to play that role, and that’s ok, too. If Adolin needed that support from Kaladin or Shallan, I have no doubt they would both be there for him in a heartbeat, assuming they weren’t dealing with their own crises. The important thing is the willingness to support, and I don’t get the impression either of them are just using Adolin in a one-sided relationship.
Also, I feel like Adolin is giving off strong Edgedancer vibes. Interacting with his people on a personal level, taking an interest in their lives, and paying attention to characters who’re trying to convince everyone that they’re just fine – it feels like some pretty good “remembering” and “listening,” especially the way he doesn’t try to force anything on Kaladin or Shallan. He’s there is they need him, he remembers them, he’s there to listen – all Edgedancer things to do. Even insisting upon keeping Maya and treating her like she’s alive rings of Edgedancer-iness.
That said, I do hope we get some Adolin POVs during this book (I can’t remember who our POV characters for Part 1 were; I don’t think Adolin was one?). Having been the person who plays the support role to all my friends, that can be hard on the supporter when you’re constantly worried about everyone else. The inside of his head is probably a very interesting place right now and I’d love to get a peek at it.
EDIT: @44 Gepeto – I don’t think every character needs to have those moments of struggle and breakdown. People are differently resilient and have different abilities to handle what life throws at them, and handle it in different ways. If every character was an emotional mess internally, that would get old. It’s ok to have characters who aren’t constantly on the verge of a breakdown or massive self-doubt. As a person who has some tendencies very similar to Adolin (caring about and trying to help everyone) and also who has been blessed by people who play that role for me, it’s refreshing to see a character like him who’s both the me I want to be and also the person I sometimes need other people to be. It’s alright if you don’t find him interesting; not every person is going to identify with every character and making every character pleasing to every reader is nigh-impossible. That doesn’t necessarily mean Sanderson has done something wrong with his characterization.
@@@@@ Austin
No one is forcing anyone to read the chapters. What’s the difference between this and OB’s release? Nothing, except the different POVs. OB’s first 12 chapters had 6 of Dalinar, 4 of Kaladin, 2 of Adolin and 3 of Shallan. If you are 4 books deep into a 5 book series and you can’t trust the author more than 12 chapters in, then that’s a personal issue with the book. That’s all this is, not that the format is a failure.
So, this explains it – Kaladin never took any new squires after the initial batch that we saw him training in OB. And all of them except for the named 3 bonded honorspren.
Alice:
From everything we have seen so far only the Third Ideal Windrunners (and the Fourth Ideal Lightweavers and Skybreakers) can have squires. However, when Teft first reached his Third, Kaladin assigned him to Bridge Thriteen, and also gave him the Second-Ideal Lopen for support. It would be logical if that’s how things continued – which would explain why they only have 250 squires to 50 bonded Radiants, when Kaladin alone had over 30 squires. Most of the Radiants must be Second-Ideal ones, who are teamed with the few Third-Ideal ones and their squires.
Adolin is a treasure! Though, hopefully, somebody would be there to catch him when he needs it, too. Too bad that revelations about Rathalas and his mother’s death happened off-screen. But maybe we’ll still see him dealing with them? He seems significantly more critical of Dalinar and pushing against him in some areas, at least.
As to themental health “help” offered by ardentia, they really should consult Jasnah on the subject – she’ll have quite a bit to say, I bet! Speaking of – there is a hint that she is gradually doing something about the caste system. I want to hear more! And I really hope that she either already abolished slavery or we’d witness her doing so.
Rock – very mysterious. He used the Windrunner surges on the airship, but doesn’t consider himself a squire. I also remember that he was lying about his situation re: Horneater customs to Bridge Four and I suspect that Kaladin wholly misunderstands what he Rock is going to face. Rock’s early exit from Urithiru removes him from contention as the Sibling’s Bondsmith, IMHO, though he still might become Nightwatcher’s Bondsmith. I’d very much prefer Rlain for this, however and hope that Rock is becoming a Stonward instead.
Wow, do I love Adolin.
I hope we get some real Adolin POVs. The handful of scenes we get don’t really give any insight into him as a person. We get a lot of action scenes from him, but no quiet ones that give him time to react to events like Kaladin and Shallan get so much.
There were some good ones that would have been excellent from his POV: His first meeting with Ialai in OB, the fallout from That Duel in WoR, any of Dalinar’s truth bombs…
@@@@@ Gepeto
How exactly do think Adolin’s story goes in RoW, honestly? Do you really think Brandon will never extropolate on anything? That Maya will just pop up considering that no one else has ever revived a Shardblade? That during the journey that he is supposedly taking this book, with Shallan, is not going to result in any sort of character development or realization?
Also you say “skipped” like Brandon can’t possibly revisit any of these topics. At this point, how many flashbacks have we had in this series? You should probably have a little more faith.
@40 Gepeto, I believe I very clearly provided multiple examples of his struggles, mistakes, and hurdles, that showed his depth and layers in multiple paragraphs. Your choice to not mention them at all, ignore the evidence but instead again reiterate this IMO unsupported view of “perfection” is your own. I can’t do anything about that. No worries.
Initial Observations:
So, clearly we’re not quite done with reading about Kaladin’s arc. Although it seems that Brandon is using Kal’s perspective in this chapter to give us a view of various other characters, moreso than centering the chapter too much on just Kaladin. This way, we got insight into the Windrunners evolution, Urithuru administration and growth, Adolin, Shallan/Veil/Radiant, Rock & Family, Jasnah, Dalinar, Syl, Pattern and a whole lot more. And this chapter didn’t seem all that expositiony.
If Adolin wasn’t already one of my favorites in Stormlight Archive, he definitely would have become one now. He’s just such a good guy, a good friend, a good husband… he’s just quality peoples. I appreciate that he won’t abandon Maya, even if the possibility of Radiance would be the reward. He knows something’s not right with Kaladin and Shallan, and he doesn’t try to “fix” it. He’s just “there” for them.
So, Dalinar’s Oathbringer did come out. I know a lot of folks wanted to see the reaction to the revelation of Evi’s murder onscreen, but I’m okay with finding out about it this way, first. I would like to have an Adolin POV where he dwells on his feelings about Dalinar’s actions leading to his mother’s death eventually, though. Let’s see what Brandon has in store for us.
Shallan is not okay. She knows it, Veil knows it, Radiant knows it, Pattern knows it and (thankfully) Adolin knows it. I do hope this book results in the helping of Kaladin and Shallan to cope with their situations. I don’t want them to be “fixed” or “healed” as that’s not realistic; but I do want RoW to end with them on the path to getting better, however that turns out.
Another Jasnah reference! Now, can we just please see her onscreen?! Even if it’s too discuss killing Heralds again. (I kid, I kid!)
Another good chapter; Brandon is knocking this book out of the park so far!
@10
We’re being caught up on a 1 year timeskip. To an extent he’s reintroducing us to the characters again. The first three books all followed pretty much immediately on one another with a matter of days or weeks between them. Now they’ve been out doing stuff for a full year that we haven’t seen. Entire relationships and dynamics have changed.
You almost have to think of this as the start of a new sub-series.
@Gepeto I totally agree with you that Adolin is showing signs that this marriage isn’t working for him. That isn’t saying a marriage to someone with DID can’t work or be healthy, but the way he looked at Kaladin and the way he said you are NOT my wife, shows he isn’t really taking it as well as it may appear.
This chapter gave me a couple of directions this could go. Adolin does heal Mya and becomes an Edgedancer and a mental healer. Or Kaladin looks into becoming a mental healer for both himself AND to be there for Adolin/Shallan. Maybe Kaladin realizes Adolin is putting on a mask the same way he is. I wonder if Kaladin knows about Adolin murdering Saldaes because they have had discussions where Adolin needed to talk to someone about it and Kaladin acted as the friend and didn’t judge him for it. Like you though, I wish that we could see more evidence of a two way friendship.
@57
Have they changed over the last year? Shallan is still struggling with multiple personalities and getting worse. Kaladin still struggles with depression. I do not see any sign of personal growth in them over the last book.
Honestly, the Fused have been more interesting so far, and we have seen genuine change there in a way we haven’t with the “humans”.
@57 Assuming the first five books are still a set, the first three books being a trilogy about the fall of Alethkar and now we’re on a duology about the rise of the Knights Radiant?
ETA; @59 At the end of OB, Shallan though she wasn’t going to form more personalities after Veil and Radiant. We’ve found out in this book that she very well could. At the end of OB, Kaladin’s PTSD and depression was under control. Now it’s so bad he’s off active duty.
1 /
I am starting to wonder of Adolin is the “Patron Saint of Broken People” (for lack of a better term).
Originally his brother and father, who were “broken” and seem to have gotten better – how much weight did Adolin carry thinking he had to make things better for them back when he was younger?
And now, Shallan, Maya and Kaladin.
You get the impression he feels the responsibility to try to help them too.
I don’t think this is a coincidence, nor do I think him having Maya is either.
We all see Adolin as a warrior, leader, soldier but by the end of these books (not book 4, sometime in the future), I think he will be something much more different (not necessarily a radiant) and his being a “Patron Saint of the Broken” will play a big part in that transformation.
The other impact to drive change is likely to come from his relationship with his father, which we have seen small glimpses of already in this chapter.
2/
Unlike Kaladin, Shallan (through Radiant), seems to be reaching out for help.
Not to Adolin, but to Kaladin.
I suspect Shallan and Adolin’s relationship is messier than we all think (and we all think it is pretty darned messed up!). Perhaps her inability to find the balance in the three (without introducing more personalities) is that she needs someone she can be vulnerable that is not Adolin. I get the feeling Shallan does not have the strength to be that level of vulnerable with Adolin or fear that Adolin (despite proving otherwise) might not want to be with her / respect her / love her any longer if she is completely honest.
Who else does she have other than Kaladin to talk with?
No one really.
Shallan has proven in the past that she can be Kaladin’s “Tien”. I wonder if Kaladin can become that to her, and in the process, find ways to help each other in healing and self-peace.
I always felt more of a brother-sister relationship between these two.
3/
Rock.
Ooof. That hurt.
There is a lot more to Rock’s story, which we will hear about (and hopefully see in first person), I wonder if there is going to be some form of “The Scouring of the Shire” scenario in the Horneater Peaks that Rock and his family will have to face and resolve.
While sad to see characters move on, the slow disbanding of Bridge 4 is akin to the natural progression in life. We have all been through it ourselves (Finishing school, leaving home, starting families – and everything in between – then watching our kids do the same).
From a writing point of view, this also allows for progression of the story (rather than regression by constantly going back to Bridge 4 characters, allowing for new plot points and characters to move forward). Some of Bridge 4 might make it into the main storyline (Teft, The Lopen, etc.. ), but I expect most to become periphery characters that are occasionally mentioned.
@44 gepeto: “Where are his struggles? Where are his layers? Where are his moments where he is crippled by the events? Where are his hurdles? When did Adolin even feel pain, sorrow, hardships? Where are the passages longer than one sentence illustrating those even exist?”
Why does Adolin need to struggle? Why does he need to be “crippled” by something to grow from it, or to be seen as layered. Why does he have to be traumatised to feel like a “real” character?
Adolin has grown and changed a lot since TWOK, while still retaining the things that his mother taught him (which are, and always have been, a key part of his character and role).
His biggest “flaw” was his inability to commit to things or accept responsibility. He rejected Dalinar’s abdication because he didn’t want/feel ready to be high prince. He flitted between courtship unable to settle down or form a meaningful relationship with anyone – both romantic and platonic. He said himself he was familiar with many people, but only really close to Renarin. He refused to be king after Elhokar’s death. He also idolised his father/often found himself in his shadow/restrictively bound by his morals and ideals.
Now as we see him in Rhythm of War he’s been solidly married for a year. He has close friendships with at least Kaladin and Veil, to the point that he’s obviously confided in Kaladin about his role in Sadeas’s death. He’s accepted the duty and weight of becoming highprince and matured into it, while remaining himself.
He’s also clearly lost, not necessarily his respect, but his idolisation of Dalinar. He’s learned to be his own man, with his own principles and leadership style. He accents his uniform and indulges in his love of fashion, making it his own. He drinks alcoholic wines now, though in moderation, learning to adapt and apppy to Codes for himself. He leads in a way that works for him, and that he’s comfortable with, despite Dalinar’s disapproval. There are many ways to shell a chull, so to speak. Adolin has matured and become his own man.
I refuse to believe Dalinar’s part in Evi’s death won’t have changed Adolin, and we WILL see that. Adolin was close to his mother, and still emulates her in his ways of being “un-Alethi” this chapter just wasn’t the moment for it.
He still has his bond with Maya to progress with. His rejection of Kal’s suggestion that he put her aside in favour of a Radiant bond implies he’s developed through that insecurity as well. Adolin was heir to the princedom, in-line to the throne of Alethkar, the most eligible bachelor in Vorin Roshar, an unparalleled duelist, an excellent general. And then his whole life turned upside down and he became “unimportant.” Every major member of his family, save Navani, including his younger brother, who has previously always been in his shadow, has become Radiant. Except him.
And he’s okay with that. He’s found out how he can be “important” again. He’s come into his own. He’s become a leader. He’s become his own man. He may not be Radiant, but he is their rock, their support, their advisors, and protector. He’s created his place in this world and grown into it beautifully. And the place he’s made is informed by HIS character, HIS flaws, HIS trauma, and HIS experiences.
Why does a character need to break in order for their arc to be meaningful? Not all growth is loud and showy coming in the form of newly spoken ideals and dramatic, pinnacle narrative moments. It can come more slowly, it can be shown rather than told. Adolin isn’t a “thin” or “weak” character because he’s not a Radiant, or because he hasn’t broken dramatically from his trauma, or because he supports the people he loves. He’s a good character because of all of those things. He’s a supportive person, that doesn’t mean he’s just a support character.
@50 Keyblazing – Did I say I was having problems with this format? I was explaining to people who have complaints that it’s not the best idea to read the book this way. I think 90% of the issues people are having would not occur if they were reading through the book without pausing for a week after every chapter.
With the way I was feeling today I was so glad to see Kaladin today. Favourite chapter of the book so far. I
Both as a soldier and as a surgeon Kaladin wants to physically save everyone. Adolin supports everyone mentally. He has no formal training because they don’t have therapists, but if they existed Adolin would be one. He is frustrated that he can’t help as well as he wants to because that training doesn’t exist in their world.
@@@@@ 63 Austin
Oops, sorry. Yeah, I would agree with you. For people who don’t care for Kaladin or Shallan, they can probably just breeze through and it’s less of an issue even during a reread.
“You gave me back my life,” he said. “Thank you for that, Kaladin, bridgeleader. Do not be sad that now I choose to live that life.”
Somehow, some way, I believe this fits into the ideals of the Windrunners… the Words they must say.
@47 SnootBoop, Szeth has only one chapter and Dalinar is absent for the most of the book. I think people should stop hoping. I’m endlessly disappointed too, but I’m not giving myself false hopes.
@Kell Correct me if I am wrong, but don’t we see at the beginning of each part who are the viewpoint characters? And this changes from Part to Part? We already know who will be for this part, so I don’t know why anyone is surprised. And if someone goes and finds the diagram of viewpoints by part that had no character names before, you can figure out how many not in part 1 will be in later parts and if someone from part 1 has breaks in later parts.
It is getting hard to answer to everyone, so I will answer in a general manner. I loved this week’s chapter and apart from Kaladin’s third fight, I am generally pleased with how RoW is progressing so far. None of what I have said is a critic of the actual book, more a need to accept something I really wanted to read was not going to make it to the actual book.
So I am bummed. I am bummed because I feel I need to grief for the character I once thought Adolin could become. He once was a character I strongly related to. I related to the sharp contrast between what he has been projecting and what he felt. I enjoyed the unraveling of the perfect prince: finding out his life is not so perfect as it seems is something I hold very dear to me. Probably because this is how I felt, for most of my life, how I felt my life was supposed to be perfect because I was successful where other people want you to be successful. The fact I miserably failed elsewhere never seemed to bother many people, so long as I came across as successful enough. Yet, despite this facade, I hurt, I felt pain and bright white-hot anger. Anger at my family situation, at what it did to me, at my failure to not feel more supportive, at myself for not having the right feelings, the list goes on.
So basically, I have loved Adolin because he represented this: this hardship, this pain, this anger. He had it all. Everyone thinks he has it all, but no one understands all the pain that goes underneath because he chose not to let them know, because he does not want to appear weak… I related to this, a lot. This was me in a nutshell.
I wanted the nutshell to crack open. I owed it to myself to crack it opened, after all these years, I owed it to me to go down there, to see all that really is inside, and having a fictional friend to relate to made it easier. It felt like I had a fictional character to understand me and if I could get others to understand this, then maybe, they’d understand me too.
Except, this isn’t how Sanderson wants to write his character. He does not want to crack the nutshell open nor to expose what hides inside. He prefers if Adolin serves a therapist’s function towards other characters: he may not be entirely fine with it, but it clearly isn’t costing him much. Instead of exploring all that could have hidden in the nutshell, he decided Adolin would just… be there for others and others love him for this… He decided the facade would be the real Adolin and there was nothing else to explore, no nutshell to crack. Nothing.
Hence, while this is a valid extrapolation on his character, it is one I feel lacked all the depth I wanted to read. There is no nutshell to crack open, nothing else lies behind Adolin easy manner and all I thought I was relating to, it is gone.
So I am bummed because I didn’t want it gone. Yes, I wanted Adolin to go down there, to find out he is not OK with all of it, I wanted others to realize appearing perfect did not mean one was, that appearing healthy did not equate healthy… I wanted him to scream it because I had waited for so long to scream myself, a scream no one hears because it isn’t the right scream to have. I wanted the crushing failure, the hardships because without emotional content, no one was ever going to *get* what lies inside the nutshell: nice and quiet do not crack nutshells opened.
I wanted a lot of things this chapter more or less confirmed we were very unlikely to get.
It does not mean what we get in exchange is bad or I am not enjoying it, it just means I have lost the fictional friend I thought I have. Instead, I have a character I no longer recognize myself into who seems like he will embody perfection more than unravel it thus entertaining the dream all that seems must be real.
Hence, he who had it all will keep on having it all without exploring what drives people to build it up in the first place or what else it may be hiding.
I love the fact that likely the first person to revive a dead spren will be a person whose likely future order is based on remembering the lost and forgotten. I have no problems with Adolin’s character portrayal, and am not surprised some of the juicier conflicts will be saved for flashbacks when we need more character flaws and cracks for the Nahel bond to take.
I am very interested in the Davar family background- why does a minor noble house have one much interaction with the big players, and what is Shallan’s darker secret? This is playing up to more crosses of lines of Odium’s, Cultivation’s, and Honor’s power, like Renarin and Glys, and Venli and her spren.
The Ghostbloods are still not clear in their motives. I still believe Ishnah is a Ghostblood spy, which is how they knew one of the unmade wants to betray Odium, but until we know exactly what they are hunting then things are going to be mysterious.
Wait, Rock can see at least partially into the Cognitive Realm, right? He can see shadows of what spren really look like. Do we know what the hell Hoid looks like in the other realms? Maybe that’s why Rock is so adamant that he’s a god.
@70 – I think that’s being a little unfair to Brandon. Or to any writer, really.
@72 We see Hoid in the cognitive realm in Mistborn’s Secret History.I don’t remember him looking particularly unusual but it’s been awhile.
Alice and Lyndsey reminded me about something I forgot in my initial observations: F*** Moash.
Adolin really is the best kind of friend! There when needed, calling Kaladin’s bluff, and (as Alice & Lyndsey said) have beneficial, selfless expectations. And yes, he is a born leader. He can even issue a (gentle) rebuke and have it be seen as an inoffensive comment. He’s a great people-person; people don’t follow him because they fear him or are overwhelmed by his will (like his dad), but because they love/appreciate/respect him. I project he’ll be a great Highprince. As for his reaction to the news about his father’s role in his mother’s death, I do have faith that Brandon won’t have this be the end of the matter in RoW.
Radiant’s mention of other personalities “half-formed” is definitely concerning. Quick aside: how “real” does Radiant consider herself to be? Anyway, I also appreciate Radiant telling Kaladin about Shallan’s mental status, but I see it more as Radiant doing the honorable thing and telling a trusted friend and companion. I think that kind of action is to be expected from her.
Re: Rlain – I’m still not convinced he’ll end up a Windrunner. I know we haven’t yet been told what happened to him after he left midway through OB, but I wouldn’t be surprised if some major things happened. I’m still hoping that will result in him becoming a Bondsmith. All of Bridge 4 becoming Windrunners (except for Rock and Dabbid) just doesn’t feel right. I thought some of them (like Skar) would possibly become Stonewards, but Rlain may end up being the only non-Windrunner Radiant of the group.
Re: Rock – I do appreciate that Skar and Drehy are going to support him as he faces justice, just as they often supported Adolin when he faced some tough challenge. As for the “justice” that Rock will encounter, I still believe that he is going back to the Peaks to become some type of King. But I guess we’ll see (hopefully we won’t have to wait until the Rock novella for that).
I am now really confident that the radiants/squires need rest from their powers/stormlight and why Urithiru has an antifabrial at it’s center. It was a place of rest or recuperation away from their powers. It’s going to be imperative to make that work as we see the some of the first two radiants already succumbing to exhaustion just makes me wonder what Jasnah’s secret is.
“She held up a sketch of the gemstone pillar at the heart of Urithiru. It is the same, she thought, turning the fabrial in her hand, then comparing it to a similar-looking construction of garnets in the picture. The ones in the pillar were enormous, but the cut, the arrangement of stones, the feel was the same.
Why would the tower have a device to suppress the powers of Radiants? It was their home.”
@62 Taryn – Well said!
Adolin was wonderful in this chapter. I love Kaladin, but I was getting frustrated at his refusal to ask for or accept help when he’s surrounded by people who care about him and want to help it. So good on Adolin for refusing to let him isolate himself.
I’ve been going through the epigraphs lately in preparation for the RoW release, to make sure I’m not missing major things, and something jumped out to me about the Unmade. We’ve got 3 that are more forces of nature than people (Nergaoul, aka the Thrill; Ashertmarn, the Heart of the Revel; and Moelach, who causes the dying to have visions of the future, or “death rattles”); 3 with intelligence and personalities (Re-Shephir, the one who makes shadows of real thing, who Shallan fought in Urithiru; Sja-anat, who corrupts spren; and Yelig-nar, who confers forms of power on the Listeners); and 3 who we know little about (Ba-Ado-Mishram, Chemoarish, and Dai-Gonarthis.
On Dai-Gonarthis, we have one line from the death rattles in the first book.
Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Dai-Gonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it!
It makes me think of what Moash said to Kaladin, and Kaladin’s thoughts at the beginning of this chapter. In Oathbringer, Odium was tempting people with giving up their guilt/responsibility: Moash, Dalinar, Amaram. Dai-Gonarthis may do something similar with tempting people to give up pain/grief. I think we might see that Unmade have a role in this book.
@16, Rabid Reader:
Good catch.
@Gepeto, if Brandon is doing the “traditional” representation of DID, the final Shallan will have aspects of all her personae. Note that DID this whole model was invented by malpractice-monger Cornelia Wilbur (with help from other non-evidence-based practitioners) and has minimal real-world evidence, but it’s what people think DID is.
@27, SnootBoop:
No love for Syl? Or Pattern?
@42, shaun:
Kaladin’s parents need to die and get out of the story. I am not a fan of “daddy issues” tales. (I’m not really that set on this opinion, but I wanted to state it as strongly as @Shaun did.
@76, Fenam:
Why wouldn’t the Stormfather, or one of the other previously-Radiant spren, tell them that? Syl can’t be the only spren who had once been a Radiant-bond, but didn’t happen to have a partner during the Recreance.
I think people are preemptively bashing on Adolin’s characterization, there’s a lot of exposition between the lines, which could lead to real conflict between him and Dalinar (especially in regards to his mother’s death). I agree that having no apparent repercussion to Sadeas’s assassination were a missed opportunity, but I’m still hoping that Sanderson will revisit this in some way, maybe utilize Mraize/Taravangian as a surprising angle, in that they may try to exploit this secret to control Shallan/cause strife between the Kholins. But even so, I’m fine with Adolin for now, he’s serving his narrative function quite effectively. Not every character has to be a microcosm of the human condition. This isn’t WOT of ASOIAF.
I also think people are getting frustrated by the pacing of these chapters, simply because what could have been a couple hours’ read for most of us, took us two months, and people are not able to reconcile with the juxtaposition therein. This feels more like a weekly sitcom than a book, and it’s getting to us. I’m gonna reserve judgement until November and judge the book when it arrives.
@79 Same reason he can’t tell them how to make Urithiru work completely?
I see a lot of comments about how perfect Adolin is, etc… but, something I think is missing is that while Adolin has a LOT of screen time, almost all of that is viewed through other people’s POV. When looking at the actual POV time, Adolin has what, like 8% of the POV so far?
While many people VIEW Adolin as essentially perfect, when you look at his POVs, he is far from perfect, which oddly enough has been one of the reasons I have not been that much of a fan of him in this series. So many readers view him as perfect, as do many of the other characters, but the killing of Sadeas is problematic for that.
While Sadeas was absolutely a snake, Adolin murdered him in cold blood, covered it up while he ‘investigated’ the murder, and while he admitted it to the handful we are aware of (reality is only Dalinar, Shallan, and Kaladin, though I think Navani must know, I don’t think we have evidence that she does). I know many people will fail to see the difference between killing (which everyone has done in this series) and the cold-blooded murder of Sadeas, but there is a HUGE difference.
The person that will do something like that is not the perfect side kick many people are projecting him to be, and given what we know about Brandon and his writing, that is far from over.
Finally, one last thing… even though Adolin has a ton of screen time and currently has the 4th most POV, I think that will slowly continue to go down. Brandon has said that his advantage over Robert Jordan is that he has read Robert Jordan. The biggest problem with the WoT was that it eventually got too big to handle because he expanded too many unnecessary (though interesting) story lines. I personally believe this is where Adolin will eventually fall into as we have more primary POV characters.
@70 Gepeto
I appreciate that sometimes we feel close to a character and they end up not being exactly what we hoped they’d be. Or exactly who we thought they’d be. That’s part of the journey in storytelling. I think you missed some of the characterization of Adolin in earlier books that pointed to how he doesn’t share your past and trauma, but how you feel is still valid. We all want relatable characters.
For me, the fact that Adolin IS just a pure good boi is important. We get lots of other characters who seemed like average joes on the surface, only to find out later that they’re dealing with some pretty crappy stuff. Basically everybody, haha. I’m glad we have one major character who has had a pretty good life up until now and can be there for the others. I’ve had to be that friend many times, so I know they exist.
It may not be what you were hoping for, I’m sorry. But it’s a good direction.
Out of everything, and this is not the first time I have thought this-but this chapter makes me think of it far more than any-but Kal and Shallan both seem as if they are taking the path of Heralds. We know that radiants are broken but Heralds had reached the point of madness.
I’ve been enjoying reading these chapters and seeing all the different takes on them.
With all the discussion around Adolin and how his bond with Maya may progress, are we seeing hints that there could be a “Cognitive Regrowth”, similar to the way we’ve seen different manifestations of Radiant power on different aspects of a person?
We do learn something from the fabrial-chat though–plated wire doesn’t affect (or minimally effects) a fabrial. That matters a lot when you’re trying to build something–different metals have different strengths, so you can’t just use iron wire and plate it with gold or nicrosil to get the desired effect. You need the real deal, which may make the fabrial fragile–important for things like half-shard shields or similar items that need to take a beating.
I wonder if Kaladin is going to make a trip to see the Nightwatcher. Dalinar did it for his mental breakdown and mentioned it in his book, so the thread is there if Adolin wants to seize on it.
I suspect Adolin hasn’t become a squire because he hasn’t really identified with any Order yet. He’s Adolin, leader of peeps and forward fashion. Plus, his bond with Maya is probably blocking any knock-on Nahel bond effects from touching him–others do better when they drop their shards (implying it’s not entirely required initially, just recommended) but his bond with Maya is far more than a standard deadeye gem-bond. So until he releases her or she fully “wakes up” he’s not getting Radiant powers.
@34 Nick
Yeah, my first thought on getting into the meat of the bar scene was “Adolin continues to act like both an Edgedancer and a Stoneward at the same time”. I have a personal preference for Adolin as a Stoneward – I think it would be interesting to see Adolin’s meta role as an “unexpected character” that was needed in order for the story to work mirror Taln’s role as the “unexpected” herald, and I think it would be odd for him to be another Edgedancer, given that we have Lift to give us insight into that Order and their interpretation of what it means to be honorable. That said, it’s obvious from this chapter that he has no intention of discarding Maya, and going all the way back to his actions when Kaladin bumps into him in the Sadeas camp WoK he has generally fit the notion of caring about the struggles of those that others ignore or don’t see.
To just sort of go through things, here’s all the stuff that points towards Adolin as an Edgedancer (other than the whole Maya plot thread):
– He pauses on his way to deliver his father’s message to Sadeas in order to help a random prostitute, simply because he sees that she is in need.
– His extremely close relationship to Renarin, and his clear willingness to think a step beyond what others are willing to do and actually *understand* the things his brother says, as compared to basically everyone else in the story, even otherwise good people, dismissing Renarin as “odd” or even “creepy” because of his autistic traits, indicates a willingness and a desire to look beyond what his culture and upbringing tell him to see in a person.
– His current desire to help Kaladin and Shallan with their issues, where (especially in the case of Shallan) most of the rest of the cast seems to be at least somewhat blind to the problem.
Here’s the stuff that points towards Adolin as a Stoneward:
– The parallel I mentioned above between Adolin’s meta-role in the story and Taln’s role in the story of the Heralds.
– The obvious parallel of Taln and Shallash with Adolin and Shallan.
– His focus on protecting and defending his father and his house throughout the first two books, especially in his fights with Szeth and even more so in the moment at the Battle of the Tower when Kaladin has to remind him that there are *other* people who are also relying on him.
– The way he is, with the exception of his duels and not even all of them, consistently placed in fights as part of a team with whom he is working. In WoK, he’s Dalinar’s partner carving out a bridgehead as the siege bridges are lowered so that the army can safely advance; in WoR he’s partnered variously with Kaladin and/or his father in smaller fights (the four opponent duel and his fights with Szeth) or with the soldiers he’s closely leading (the initial charge at the Battle of Narak and the maneuver through the ruined building) or even with Skar and Drehy specifically as his bodyguards (when he’s dealing with the rope attack in that first charge at Narak, during his second fight with Szeth, and even to an extent in his fight with Eshonai); in OB he’s partnered with Elhokar for most of the Kholinar work while Shallan and Kaladin go solo, and then at the Battle of Thaylen City he’s partnered with Hrdalm and arguably Maya. Compare this to how Kaladin’s fighting is framed: Kaladin is consistently out in front, standing *between* the enemy and whoever he is protecting at the moment, even if they are nominally his “team” assisting him in the fight. The four-foe duel is a really interesting example for this – it’s Adolin’s fight, primarily, but even here Adolin is framed as fighting alongside Kaladin, while Kaladin is framed as standing *between* Relis and Adolin’s two-on-one fight with Jakamav and Abrobadar, and it’s ultimately Kaladin who finishes the fight by getting Jakamav’s surrender while Adolin plays a support role by holding him down.
– Again related to Adolin’s fights, the way we pretty consistently see him fighting both as an infantryman, rather than as cavalry, and with the odds stacked in his opponents’ favor. First, the infantry thing, we can again compare Kaladin and Adolin: Kaladin is always charging out across the field to rescue someone, whether that’s Cenn all the way back before his enslavement, the Kholin army at the Tower, Dalinar at the Tower, Elhokar during the assassination attempt, Dalinar at Narak, Elhokar *again* in Kholinar, or Dalinar at Thaylen City. Adolin, by contrast, *holds the line*. It’s what he does at Narak, obviously, before he gets involved in the sneak attack on the singing stormforms, but it’s also his approach to rescuing Dalinar at the Tower – he’s trying to push the Alethi line forward to get to where Dalinar has been isolated – and it’s the approach he’s implied to take against Szeth in their second fight, trying to hold him back so he can’t reach Dalinar (contrast Kaladin, who chases Szeth down and duels him *away* from where Dalinar is). It’s even there in Adolin’s approach to dueling prior to Dalinar lifting his restrictions – Adolin only duels to enforce the socio-political line that he will not allow House Kholin’s enemies to cross. This fits with the implied roles of the Windrunners and Stonewards on the battlefield in the days of the original Radiants – the Windrunners are heavy cavalry, charging forward to overwhelm the foe where they’re weak or push them back where they’re strong, while the Stonewards are heavy infantry, holding the line against the best that the foe can send against them (recall also that Taln died *holding a pass* in the battle that preceded the prelude in WoK). Second, the stacking of the odds: we have of course the four-foe duel in WoR, and also his fight in OB against the Thunderclast. Also noteworthy, though, is his decision to hold the line against the overwhelming enemy forces in Shadesmar while Kaladin charges to the Oathgate to rescue Dalinar, immediately before Dalinar opens the perpendicularity (which of course obviates the decision, but the course Adolin chose to commit himself to there is noteworthy). Kaladin also faces seemingly overwhelming odds occasionally, but the narrative often goes out of its way to even the score. Adolin never has a moment like Kaladin’s jump across the chasm at the Tower that leaves a mass of opponents reeling backward in awe. Adolin completely outclasses the shardbearers he duels prior to the four-foe bout, but unlike with Kaladin’s fight against Helaran, it’s simply a fact of the duels that Adolin is so much better than his opponents that he can pretty much arbitrarily decide how the duel will go depending on what sort of show he feels like giving to the audience, while Kaladin’s ability to run rings around Helaran is a massive surprise that offsets what previously appeared to be a total advantage for the shardbearer.
– Next, there’s Adolin’s decision to support his father. Obviously Dalinar is quickly proven to be sane and the visions real, but prior to that we see Adolin make the decision that, regardless of his own feelings on the matter, he is going to follow and support his father. This we can contrast with his reaction to Dalinar’s desire to abdicate – Adolin explicitly *isn’t* seeking to replace Dalinar in a leadership role; he’s trying to instead give proper feedback as a reliable subordinate of Dalinar. This attitude is all over his rejection of the crown of Alethkar at the end of OB, as well; Adolin has no desire to be the leader in charge of a nation. Rather, he wants to be the reliable, loyal vassal of an appropriate leader. Dalinar, meanwhile, is committed to leading a separate group, leaving the post open. Jasnah, in contrast to both, has no opinion on leadership; she is perfectly willing to step up to the role when asked, and takes to it with the same drive to excellency with which she pursues every task she takes on, but she doesn’t seek it either.
– There is also the way he chooses to assist Shallan on her mission to the warcamps – he is the one she can rely on to lead the extraction team, capturing whoever they can and making sure that she can get out safely at the termination of her role as a spy. Notably he *doesn’t* serve as a fellow spy, nor does he take a particularly major role as an analyst after the fact.
– Lastly and perhaps least persuasive, there’s Adolin’s incredible skill as a Shardbearer. He is quite probably the best swordsman among the Alethi, and we know from the in-world Words of Radiance that the Stonewards were the weaponmasters among the original Knights Radiant.
And now to turn to the things that point towards *both* orders:
– His relationship with his subordinates as pictured in this chapter. This can be viewed as an Edgedancer’s focus on listening to the voices and needs of those who do not have power, or as a Stoneward’s egalitarian and teamwork-oriented approach to their duties.
– His attitude towards Maya in WoR, before he learns her true nature in OB – again, you can take his respect for her and his decision not to give her a new name as either an Edgedancer intuiting that she is among the lost and voiceless, and therefore deserves to be respected, thanked, and not talked over, or as a Stoneward intuiting that the bond is a partnership and trying to treat her as an equal member of that partnership as best he can.
– His actual approach to helping Kaladin and Shallan. Again, we can focus on his willingness to listen, and desire to help with the needs *they* describe, as opposed to making assumptions about their needs, or we can focus on his decision to be a steady rock that they can rely on.
All of this is to say, in my very longwinded manner: I don’t know for sure where Adolin is going, though I think he’s headed towards (at least, I suppose) one of these two orders, and I don’t expect him to really get there until the end of book 5 or start of book 6, since his character arc as a whole is clearly more of a slow burn than those of more prominent characters like Kaladin, Shallan, and Dalinar, or even characters like Szeth and Venli whose stories just move faster than his. I think Adolin is probably the most prominent of the Renarin/Lift/Jasnah set of characters who are being set up for much deeper exploration in the second half of Stormlight, while still starting their arcs here in the first half.
—-
Meanwhile, I finally scratched a minor itch of mine that had been bugging me over the past couple of weeks: we’ve got seven Tuesdays left until Rhythm of War comes out, not counting today and release day itself. Continuing at the current pace, that would see about twenty chapters total released in this format. Looking back at Oathbringer for comparison, that would probably put us two-thirds of the way through Part 1 (which in OB was 32 chapters). This does also mean that one interlude people have been mentioning occasionally probably won’t come out in the prerelease, even if it’s part of the first set of interludes (and for what it’s worth, while I haven’t sought it out, it sounds to me like that interlude would be part of the first or second set).
As someone who generally does not like Kaladin, I was not happy Chapter 12 started with a Kaladin PoV. As a character in this series, I do not care to read Kaladin’s arc. Brandon writes him well; I simply do not enjoy reading about his many depressive moods. I suffer from mild depression so it is not fun to read a character who is even more depressed than I am. Oh well. I have to take the bad with the good.
I am glad to see that the original members of Bridge 4 embraced all the new members (such as Lyn, Kara and all others that are now Windrunners and/or squires). It is good that they do not behave like the original members are their own clique that nobody else can join.
I find it interesting (and somewhat sad) that in the year to 2 years since Kaladin had “awoken”, his best friend (or at least the person who Syl thinks is Kaladin’s best friend is Adolin). I use the word awoke not in a Cosmere sense. I use it in the sense Kaladin came out of his fugue state in WoK. One would have thought he would have become better friends with some of Bridge 4. On the other hand, it should not surprise me. Kaladin is the commanding officer and I imagine it would be tough for a commanding officer to be best friends with one of his/her subordinates. Likewise, we have seen most of Adolin’s close Lighteyed friends either die or betray him and/or distance themselves from him over the Dalinar/Sadeas struggles. In that way, both Adolin and Kaladin are in the same boat; both do are authority figures with little or no contemporaries they can confide in. I guess it also goes back to as a character, I do not like Kaladin but I do like Adolin. Thus, I would prefer the scenes we get with Adolin not include Kaladin in a human setting such as this (as opposed to an action scene like the fight in Kholinar).
It is funny. While I dislike Kaladin (I know. I know. Everyone gets it. AndrewHB does not like Kaladin.), I enjoy Syl. Her response as to why she got Adolin is great. I like how Jasnah was one of the other two that Kaladin could not intimidate. I am guessing the 3rd is either Dalinar or Lyn. If Lyn dated Kaladin (even for a few months), then Kaladin definitely could not intimidate Lyn.
How Navani. Offer tax breaks to arrange the market place exactly as how she preferred.
Dalinar disapproving of Adolin spending time with the common troops. Ironic considering some of the establishments Dalinar visited. Different reasons, of course. Yet, both could not stand being with the stereotypical “snooty” elite. This attitude of Adolin (which I think he inherited/learned from Evi) is another reason why he fits so well with Shallan. Shallan is anything but your typical Alethi Brightlady.
What is mudbeer?
Does not surprise me that Kaladin is somewhat envious of Shallan’s mental state where she can have different personas so that one can hide way when she wants. I had hoped that Adolin would hae accepted the Three. It would have gone a long way give to my hope that we can have Shallan reach a suitable balance that allows her to maintain her different personas. I do not want to see at the end of book 5 that she integrates them all in is somehow cured of her DID. But in all honesty, if I were Adolin, I am not sure I would not be able to cope with my spouse if my spouse had these multiple personas. I find it interesting in this chapter we see situations where sometimes a spren will take a different position than their bondee. Both Syl and Pattern are concerned with their bondee that they are willing to talk to others behind the back of their bondee. I hope the relationship between spren and bondee in this case is strong enough that if the bondee finds out how concerned the spren is, there will not be any repercussions in their respective relationships.
Kaladin was right. Veil should have been more discreet about the true death of Ialai. Now we know why the reports said that Ialai killed herself. I guess they did tell Dalinar the truth. I hope they also told Jasnah the truth; unless the Shattered Plains are not part of the sovereign authority of Alethkar.
For WoT fans, Veil talks like Birgitte.
Sometimes Brandon likes to drop bombshells as if they are feathers. The fact that Brandon causally drops that Dalinar released his book (and all the consequences that come with it) will probably upset a lot of fans. They will not get to see the reactions of Adolin and Renarin (and Navani and Jasnah, for that matter) when the truth came out. Oh well. This should make for interesting reading of this week’s comments.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
@75:
Renarin is no Windrunner! #Rlain4truthwatcher1176
(I went through this in another post here a couple weeks back, but Rlain is so Truthwatcher to me that it hurts.)
I think it is pretty reasonable that Adolin is being the way he is now. Adolin was not without a mental scratch, he had lived through the absence of his father, the death of his dear mother since early childhood, taking care of a drunken father and a problematic younger brother as a teenager, and growing up into an adult while fighting a 6-year war revenging his uncle’s death, ending with most of his friends being killed because of his father’s blind trust on the enemy. Nevertheless, it was less harsh than the experience of Shallan and Kaladin (though comparable to many other Radiant characters), and he was also older than them when crazy shits really started. But I think it was exactly because of this reason that he had time to become more mature and solid, by maybe “fill the cracks with something stronger”. And him having learned from his mother and practiced throughout his childhood, it is natural for Adolin to become good at taking care of people.
Now with the act of caring for Renarin, Dalinar during his childhood, Kaladin, Shallan, and Maya at the present, I think I had an idea of one direction that BS could have planned for Adolin, a caregiver for people. With this role, we should not expect Adolin to receive much support from other people anytime soon. But this does make Adolin an unrealistic character at all. There are many people like him in real life: nurses, parents, and spouses of mentally/physically disabled people as some examples, and with so many disabled people in this series, there need to be some more representatives of the caregivers.
But it is not like Adolin does not have any problems of his own. Now I could identify at least two problematic traits of Adolin that are also characteristic to a caregiving person, the tendency to sacrifice oneself and the feeling of helplessness, not to mention his conflict with his father which has been nurtured since WoK with Danilar believed to be crazy, and approaching a climax with the murder of Sadeas and the truth of Evi’s death. There are multiple instances of Adolin just recklessly fought and almost sacrificed himself already, and even getting married to Shallan could be considered a kind of sacrifice. On the other hand, the feeling of helplessness till now was just related to him being overwhelming and no longer helpful in the new world, but I think in the future this would be explored much more along the plotline of Shallan.
Given that, I think it is very likely that the relationship of Adolin with other characters would remain to be a one-side giving relationship. Also atm, there is not much need for Adolin to receive care from anyone, and also no one solid enough to take care of him. But I hope ( and dread) that a time will come, and I hate to say it but it will probably relate to Shallan, Adolin will fail and break and have to accept care from someone, be it Kaladin or Renarin.
#33 I agree, and I have reacted to that too. I hope they will take your words to heart.
Now, about Adolin. Everyone here saying he’s so perfect and unbelievable. I really don’t find him so, because I live with Adolin. My husband is so similar to him. He has his own issues yes (as does Adolin and anyone claiming otherwise has selective memory), but he really truly finds the most purpose in being there for others. Lucky for me I guess since I ended up disabled mentally and physically after we became a couple. I’m not gonna lie, I am difficult to live with at times, between depression, a personality disorder, and multiple chronic illnesses. And he is always there no matter what I need, a shoulder to cry on or for him to make me food. And he’s like that for everyone in his life. People like Adolin exists, and I for one am happy to see it in a book. Because the genuinely kind, compassionate, caring MAN is not something often seen.
Awesome book so far, but i hope there will be an confrontation between Dalinar and his sons about Evi…
I know Dalinar didn’t want to kill her, but nevertheless he gave the order and she was burned alive. How can Adolin not being furious with his father? There is no sense, but i trust Brandon will eventually show us this confrontation and not just a random quote from Adolin about his father not being always right.
The man killed Sadeas for betraying them, but when he knows what Dalinar did with his mother he does nothing, and that’s all?????
What about Odium? Why on earth (actuality Roshar) Odium didn’t used this information to create some tension between Dalinar and his sons? again, nonsense…
Anyway, i hope the beta readers had done their job right…
@73 Austin. What I find unfair is you calling me unfair after having opened up about personal reasons why Adolin’s character leaves me personally bummed as opposed to excited.
@79 Carl. Yeah, I got that, but I still wish it goes in a different way because Shallan keeping on being Veil/Radiant most of the time simply isn’t an endgame I would personally enjoy. I see them as a problem she needs to deal with. Not to forget it isn’t fair to Adolin. If this is the endgame, then I hope Adolin will leave Shallan.
@80 Misbah. I have explained the reasons why I was hoping for a stronger deeper characterization for Adolin’s character. I will not re-mash it, but for me, Adolin will forever remain the character “that could have been”.
@83 anon. I respect your position and everyone else. I might have been totally misguided in what I saw in Adolin’s character. I think there were clues I was not completely off, but he has always been a character with more than one option in front of him. Sanderson chose an avenue that takes the character away from where I wished he had gone.
I respect a lot of readers who enjoy this, but it makes me sad. I feel like I have lost a friend or someone that could have understood me.
@88 Andrew. The fact Sanderson casually dropped Dalinar’s book has been read and we didn’t get to read neither Adolin nor Renarin’s initial reaction frustrates me. It was a big moment that deserved focus time, so whatever comes next, it can never account for the reveal not having happened on-screen. This is like the murder of Sadeas all over again: great climactic scene, no denouement.
On Adolin: I think I am always going to disagree on most of you on his characterization. I agree to disagree with everyone. I just wanted something I thought I was getting. Hence, I feel as if I had lost something I thought I had. That’s sad, for me, I agree no one else would ever feel the same. This is a Me Only problem, but where Adolin is going, as a character, I don’t find it super interesting.
I would have rather Adolin never got viewpoints nor the inkling of a narrative as I find his current characterization works better for a support viewpoint-less character. I don’t find there is anywhere for him to go, down the caring, kind supportive path, that would lead him towards a narrative interesting to read. It is fine… for a minor named character, but not for someone with actual viewpoints. I really do not see how Maya can pan out into an interesting read without… hurdles, emotions, hardships, things that make narratives interesting to read, that makes payoff worth reaching it. I can’t see how Adolin can have this.
Hence for me the clash between where Adolin could have gone, after Sadeas, after Dalinar’s reveal, and where he is obviously going makes me bummed. Not disappointed. Bummed. I just no longer find it an interesting narrative. I find it makes Adolin boring.
@16: I was thinking the same thing. Recently finished rereading Warbreaker.
Regards,
Ben-son-son-Theodore
Even though part of me appreciates the realism of Kaladin’s depression and recognizes that this is likely to help the story in terms of his characterization, I find these chapters digging into his feelings so hard to read. I found myself sort of wishing we had just seen most/all of these events from Syl’s or Adolin’s perspective. Maybe it’s because I’m the type of reader who tends to (and usually likes to) try to be in the character’s shoes in a fantasy book. I don’t want that at all here, obviously.
I don’t think this is something Sanderson would do, but some of this chapter felt like it was hinting that Kaladin and Veil are going to still have some sort of relationship, possibly even with Adolin’s consent. It feels like deliberate juxtaposition of talking about Kaladin needing romance, Veil being sexual with Adolin even though he doesn’t really want that because she isn’t his wife, and the discussion of Kaladin and Shallan helping each other with their psychological issues. I don’t really think this will happen, but there’s some possible foreshadowing here and if there’s some way for it to make sense, it could be a very intriguing new twist on a love triangle. I don’t think it quite fits the characters, and I think it doesn’t at all fit the author, but it feels like something GRRM or maybe even RJ would try with these characters after this chapter.
I theorized a couple chapters back that Kaladin’s arc will include watching someone else swear the 4th Windrunner ideal before him, but he’ll do it by the end and quickly follow it with the 5th. Building on that a bit, I think he’ll be making progress out of this depressive session toward readiness for the 4th ideal, but feel discouraged again when someone beats him to it. Then I think at least one of his level-ups will directly involve Moash. I particularly like the idea that he’ll be so close to the 4th, then Moash comes and delivers another horrifying loss that seems to shut Kaladin down, but he pulls through and gets the 4th. That allows him to defeat Moash in battle, preventing yet another loss of someone he should protect. I think Kaladin needs a situation where he can and does rescue more people than people in-world thought possible because he can protect himself from the disabling pain. Then, the 5th ideal lets him somehow fix Moash and/or gives him some sort of claim to Jezrien’s honor blade that supersedes Moash’s, rendering Moash useless in a fight. I would love to see some sort of interesting synergy where being a 5th ideal radiant and holding the corresponding honor blade of a dead herald gives him a new power the heralds haven’t even seen, like Dalinar’s perpendicularity.
It is disappointing to me that week after week, I come to these comment boards expecting to find a community of people who love these books and it is overridden with negative comments that go far beyond “constructive criticism” and nosedive right into (seemingly) hate reading. I would understand a few comments like “man, I love Rock. I’m so sad he’s leaving!” Or “Kaladin’s depression really bums me out.” But I seriously wonder why so many of you are reading these books, but especially these preview chapters. And the ones who have decided a character’s arc based on the 12th chapter of the 4th book? It’s maddening. Can we go back to enjoying this, please?
On that note, I am very interested to see why Leshwi said the war had changed. Doesn’t seem like anything is different in Urithiru. I wonder what’s up with the Shin at this point. I would love to see them in the action.
@75
re: Adolin, I project the Odious forces will figure out that he’s well worth killing.
I know there’s a lot of people who don’t like the Shallan/Veil/Radiant split, but I find it fascinating. I kind of hope there’s a way for her to keep them around as somewhat separate personas even after she manages to heal and deal better with her trauma (though I think the separate personas are too integral to her mental state for that to be very likely). I like the way they interact, and honestly kind of love their interactions with Adolin and Kaladin too.
@95
I really can’t see Brandon going there with any character he writes. He’s a very conservative person; his writing style is pretty close to PG-13. A polyamorous relationship is just not something in his wheelhouse (though I wonder how he felt about that when finishing the Wheel of Time series). Besides, I believe he’s pretty much said online that the love triangle is over. And the text in OB was pretty definitive on that.
@99 Austin
I believe the reason that individual asked that, is because there is a WoB on record where Brandon says that Adolin and Shallan would be open to a polyamorous relationship, but Kaladin would not. I believe that was the rough wording, but I will check and follow up when I find it.
@99 Austin
here you go:
@elleojelo
Will we get the poly triangle we deserve?
Brandon Sanderson
I could see a world where Shallan and Adolin would go for it, but Kaladin is as prudish as I am, so I doubt you’d persuade him. :) For now, we’ll have to leave that to the imaginations of the fanfic writers.
General Twitter 2019 (Oct. 10, 2019)
I love this chapter! I love characters interacting on a personal level and this chapter hits all the right notes. It is clear from their casual interactions and knowledge of each others’ secrets and problems that Kaladin, Adolin, and Shallan have become good friends over the past year, despite Kaladin’s tendency to isolate himself. I love that Adolin was able to get through to him when all of his fellow Windrunners could not. I agree with the poster above who said Adolin is probably the only person Kaladin can relate to as a contemporary, and not someone under his command.
I am surprised to find how open Shallan is about her personalities. If she is changing hair color in public, I assume her personas are no secret to anyone. Kaladin seems to be at ease with the shift between personalities, but I’m curious to see how others interact with her. I worry that the snarky ladies of the Alethi court could be cruel about it.
One of my favorite brief revelations of this chapter is the fact that the disparities between classes and ranks have been lessened since Jasnah became queen. Can’t wait to hear more about it, and to see Queen Jasnah in action.
I am sad about Rock leaving! I assume we won’t see him for this rest of this book, at least. I hope the theory that he will be made the Horneater King comes true. Knowing Rock, he’d probably consider it the worst punishment of all. I am glad Cord is staying behind. If and when Kaladin ever finds a lasting relationship, I think she is a great candidate.
Ugh I meant “overrun” in my last post. I hate typos! But now I have a Tor.com account, so that I can edit comments haha.
I’ve been thinking about the Recreance. Is it possible that the oath breaking was mutually agreed between Radiants and their bonded spren as penance for what they did to the Singers (severing their Connection)? I’m imagining their feelings when learning that humans were the original Voidbringers exacerbated by the loss of the Sibling and abandonment of Urithiru. They would have be believed the Heralds told the truth when they said there would be no more Desolations, so they would have thought that with the Singers neutralised as a threat, they were no longer needed. Perhaps the Skybreakers and highspren were not only to guard proto Radiants emerging again, but to retain the knowledge of how to revive the deadeyes. Spren politics being complex and as yet mostly a mystery to us, I wonder if the highspren gained an advantage from having no deadeyes themselves.
Sorry that should say “guard against proto Radiants emerging again”. Really ought to get an account so I can edit!
For me, tWoK was pretty much flawless. WoR was more enjoyable but had a number of flaws. But OB didn’t work for me at all – I enjoyed a number of chapters but overall I found too many flaws to have any lasting satisfaction, to the extent that I decided to stop thinking about it or interacting with fellow fans as it just made me unhappy.
This is why I only noticed these pre-release chapters fairly recently – I’ve been lying low and somewhat hesitant about reading more because of my experience with OB. We’re about 10% of the way into the book and right now I’m reasonably happy but I’m nervous about some of the same flaws striking again. (That being said, while its early days, one of the problems I had with OB have already been improved upon and hopefully that continues)
One of the many problems I had with OB is that the end of WoR and the early chapters of OB seemed to promise fireworks for Adolin at some point. I didn’t expect it to dominate the narrative but I felt like I was promised a lot more than I got. It’s like ordering a side-dish that promises to be spicy based on the name in the menu but is actually bland when delivered. When the main dish is also unappetizing that results in a lot of disappointment.
Right now, it still feels like the early days, with the story laying out the general situation and what state the characters are in and how they see it. Essentially, setting up promises to the reader for the rest of the book. These are more obvious with Kaladin and Shallan. But what about Adolin? It’s hard to say. We’ve already missed one opportunity for fireworks – his reaction to the truth about Evi’s death. Maybe we’re supposed to expect an indirect response to all this – as in, it’s just one more straw on the camel’s back. So will Adolin snap at some point? I do get the sense that Adolin is quietly rebelling against Dalinar. But would that actually lead to anything interesting? It’s rather hard to imagine, particularly since the cover blurb seems to suggest Adolin and Shallan will spend much of the book away from Urithiru as part of an official delegation from the human alliance. So if any fireworks are going to happen it’ll have to happen soon but I can’t feel too hopeful about this.
It’s a similar situation for Shallan and the Ghostbloods. To me, the end of WoR promised fireworks during OB and again we got pretty much nothing in OB. Shallan expects a call from Mraize soon so maybe that’ll finally lead to something? I have some ideas in how this could play into Shallan’s character arc too (eg amongst other things, Shallan needs to learn from past mistakes to be more proactive before a crisis occurs). Another “nothingburger” here would be very disappointing.
So I’m keeping my fingers crossed and trying not to read too much into a single chapter. Apart from the initial chapters with Kaladin that felt like beating a horse to death I’ve been generally been quite pleased with the chapters so far.
Alice and Lyndsey. Have you talked to Aubree about her feelings for Moash at this point in the series (after the events at Hearthstone a few Chapters ago)? If so, is she still on the Moash redemption arc? IIRC, Aubree was a strong proponent of Moash-can-still-be-redeemed. I want to know if she is still on that train? Or did Aubree jump off the moving train onto a field of grass somewhere in Shinovar?
Alice. Thank you for that reminder about who Jor was (in-world). I forgot he was the bouncer who hit on Shallan/Veil in OB. To paraphrase a line Shallan used in OB: What’s a Stormlight Archive fan have to do to get me included as a character in a Stomlight Archive book? I would make a great Inkspren (as my KR Order would be Elsecallers and I am the musepren). But I will take any reference. Even a dead singer would do.
We see Brandon setting up Rock for his novella. Brandon has said he wants to write a novella centering upon Rock which takes place between the end of RoW and the start of Book 5.
Alice. One minor quibble. It was Radiant that had told Kaladin to talk to Dalinar about the full details of the Ialai matter. The text describes her hair as turning blonde at this point and she straightens up (Veil’s posture is more relaxed and lounging whereas Radiant’s posture is more at attention / like parade formation posture). I even think the text used Radiant during this point in the conversation.
Alice and Lyndsey. I think Adolin told Kaladin the truth that he killed Sadeas for the same reason that it was that Syl turned to Adolin. They are the closest things that each other has to best platonic friends. (See my comment @88 above for my further thoughts as to why both Adolin and Kaladin each do not have any other close male friends who are their own age.)
Navani is trying to create Roshar’s version of opensource coding.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@Gepeto @70
I love Adolin because he reminds me of someone I never met, but always felt incredibly close to: my maternal grandfather.
My grandfather was deported from the Sudetenland in 1937. He was liberated eight years later. His mother and baby brother were killed early on. His father and sisters vanished, and he had no reason to think they survived. At the end of the war, after liberation, his remaining brother, to his knowledge his only remaining relative, died of diabetic shock when the Russian soldiers – meaning well – gave them their rations.
My grandfather picked up his brother’s body and crossed the entirety of war torn Europe to get to the American side. There he learned his father and sisters survived – only for his father to vanish behind the Iron Curtain. We still don’t know what happened to him. My grandfather got his sisters married (one in the DP camps) and went to join his only other living relatives in Israel, which was at war at the time. He married my grandmother, and they struggled for twenty years to have a child – my mother.
Throughout he remained, according to everyone who knew him, one of the kindest, gentlest, most supportive people anyone could have known. You can see it in the candid pictures of him; there is a joy to him despite everything he has been through. Adolin reminds me of my grandfather; someone who can remain whole despite all the horrors of the world. Perhaps you wore a mask, but some people are truly like this, and it’s so rare I get to see one in literature.
As an aside, I prefer Kal in these past few chapters than in the past three books. As long as he was blaming his unhappiness on his experiences, I kept comparing him to my grandfather, who went through worse and came out better. Now, when he’s being honest and not using excuses, I can accept his feelings. He doesn’t come across nearly as whiny to me as he did; just miserable. It feels more genuine.
Is Veil now the second canonically LGBTQ+ character in The Stormlight Archive, after Drehy? ‘Cause if so, I’m kinda glad.
To be kinda honest, I was hoping for Venli’s POV this week; it was pretty refreshing to be away from the Radiants for a while.
@104, Allinka:
SPOILER WoB below:
Brandon has said that nobody in-world thinks it is possible to revive a deadeye. I would expect that to include spren, and Heralds.
@oblivion, about LGBTQ characters:
Consider that the Sibling is always “they”. That’s almost certainly because they are not male or female the way us mammals are, and does not adopt either gender role in dealing with humans. Consider also that the singers have four sexes, and gender per se isn’t a social role the way it is in all human societies.
SPOILER WoB below:
Brandon has also said that Shallan is bi.
The plot thickens and in some way I find myself more interested in all the inter personal stuff than the other stuff (fun fact, but once when I tried my hand at fan fic I realized after the fact that pretty much the entire story really just centered around people talking, introspecting and reacting to stuff after the fact, lol).
The Kaladin stuff was just way too real right now. And Adolin is such a peach – I found him a bit insuffrable in the first book, but the’s just such a decent person (in fact in some ways he reminds me of my husband). Some people really are just…solid, helpful, good people. That said, I think he’s struggling under it all – in a peverse kind of way I’m glad that the stuff with Shallan isn’t going quite as smoothly; I think he IS hurting both for her, and for not being able to fully spend time with the woman he loves. Of course, he must accept on some level that Veil/Radiant respresent something about her (although I can also accept the theory that they really are just constructed personas).
Interestingly, Veil strikes me as bisexual and I thought there was a WoB that Shallan was (her admiration of Jasnah if I recall was a little more than just hero worship). Whether or not Shallan understands this about herself is another question.
Rock! I was not expecting that gut punch :(
@111 – Not sure why it’s considered a spoiler, but just want to point out that people often think that Brandon confirmed Shallan to be bisexual. He doesn’t actually confirm anything. What he actually said is this:
His comment seems more directed to writing Shallan as crushing on Jasnah without his realizing it.
@109 – A woman commenting on another woman’s breast size does not make one sexually attracted to them. That’s not how that works.
Agh reading one week at a time is killing me, I’m desperate to know more! I enjoyed this chapter and agree with those who think Rock is going back to become some kind of King. I have three thoughts on what Kaladin might do next:
1) He goes off with Rlain to try and broker a peace between humans and the Parish men, eventually joining up with Venli’s group. This would suit Kaladin who doesn’t really want to fight the (non fused) Parish people and we would get to see more of Rlain.
2) He decides to protect so becomes a bodyguard to Jasnah and eventually (after not getting on at all) they start a relationship. Syl says that she is one of the few people not intimidated by him and we know he likes intelligent women. I feel like Brandon is moving him towards a relationship in this book – his room feels empty, his friends tell him he needs someone etc. Jasnah also needs someone who can be her equal.
3) He stays at the tower and joins his father finishing his training as a surgeon, falls in love with Laral (now her husband has conveniently died) and this return ‘home’ allows him to ‘heal’ and he is able to say the 4th ideal and return to a more prominent role in events.
I hope we do skip back in time as I need to find out more about what happened at Shallan’s wedding and the reunion with her brothers. I’m also keen to discover more about the illness Jasnah had as a child.
Do you think its possible that we’re not getting a Dalinar POV early on is because him letting Kaladin go is part of an intentional plan to help Kaladin advance to the 4th Ideal, but Brandon doesn’t want to us to know that until it actually works?
Wow, the feeling of depression are so on point. There are times it almost hurts to read it. And poor Shallan, I still can’t imagine what her child self could have done to cause this. I’m holding out hope that Wit comes back in to help.
Now for my favorite: Adolin. Brandon has said that he won’t be running deep into Adolin, he is not one of the majors. There is only so much time in the book and frankly, it would tire me out if more characters were going through breakdowns.
Adolin really is like Evi; just a darn good person. He has his faults and the boy just can’t resist a bit of fashion flair but he has begun pulling away from Dalinar and making his own place. Yes, I hope we get some drama between him and Dalinar over what came out in Oath Bringer but I care more about what happens with him and Shallan.
I love his loyalty to Maya and to Shallan. Everything he does says Edge Dancer to me. During his fighting in TC he was sliding and gliding around just as you might expect from an Edge Dancer. He does remember the forgotten and the “little” people.
I want Kaladin to get better so he and Adolin can get back to the bromance joking.
@108 Kings. Thank you for sharing. MI know I have said I didn’t feel Adolin was realistic given all that is happening. I am sure there are a great many people having similar tales than your grand-father. However, as a reader, I am interested in reading what they think, how they feel over what they lived. I am less interested in hearing how everyone perceives them.
Hence, in the context of the existing narrative, Adolin is being portrayed, from Kaladin’s perspective as caring, gentle, and supportive. As a reader, I want to know if this is how Adolin feels about himself. I struggle to believe he feels exactly as Kaladin sees him.
I had a grand-father too. He went to war. He saw horrors too though he never had to lose his closed ones. My grand-father was the nicest, gentlest soul, always smiling. He passed away decades ago, but one of the last memory I have of my grand-father was of his children, my mother, and her siblings, asking him… about the war. We were all playing a game and my grand-father casually dropped he had met Roosevelt. I remember my aunt being flabbergasted her own father had met Roosevelt and never talked about it. Everyone started asking him questions, about the war… He got all quiet. He changed the topic and said he would not talk about those things. My mother says this was the only time her father ever so much as mentioned the war.
He too was always smiling, caring, gentle, and supporting, but all those years, I wondered what horrors hid behind his silence. He died before I got to ask.
Those are the narratives I am interested in reading: what lies behind the facade because I think something always lies behind. This is why I find the idea there might be nothing else to Adolin that what we have seen unrealistic. Another part of my argument is the fact there might be nothing else, as this week suggests, bummed me because I wanted to read Adolin breaking through this facade for reasons that are somewhat personal. I felt I had a connection with the character but the more we read, the less it is there, the more it vanishes, and that makes me sad.
My comments also echo’s in large part the ones @106 Chris had. There is nothing wrong with a character who’s sole purpose is to offer support, to be a shining help, and to have no much else in terms of narrative. I would not mind this character had the narrative not constantly hinted at more. The whole debacle of the murder of Sadeas that panned out in very little significant consequences (there were some, but there were not… important) and the now the loss of the impact from Dalinar’s reveal just served to water down a narrative that initially had a lot more potential.
It also makes me fear for how Sanderson will broach Maya. I really do not feel particularly strongly over Adolin happily and easily reviving Maya with the goodness of his heart. I think this could have worked with a lesser character, it works well with Lopen, but a viewpoint character? The one character who murdered a man? Who should have had a reaction more than quiet meaningless disobedience to his father? So Adolin had half a glass of violet wine and he added embroidery to his uniform? Shocking. So that’s how he reacts to his father having killed his mother? By purchasing a uniform Dalinar would not like?
All in all, while there is nothing wrong, while this is only chapter 12 and a lot will certainly happen, I have grown to notice trends in the narrative. Usually, when Sanderson shoves emotional moments under the rug that’s because he has no intention to capitalize on them. This is why this chapter, while a fantastic read, is more or less implying this is all there ever will be to Adolin’s character.
I realize a lot of readers love this and find this is enough, but like @106 Chris and a few others, I feel my dish was watered down. And it bums me because I had all the wrong expectations for his character. I still love the rest of the story, but this narrative, it doesn’t look like it will pay off from the built-up it previously had.
@113, no, but she also makes several comments about her legs, how cute she is, etc. And while women may typically appreciate each other without necessarily being attracted, there’s also this. So I think altogether the subtext points to Veil being a little more than just neutrally commenting on her looks.
“Is there really anyone who doesn’t like smart girls?” Kaladin said.
“Me,” Veil said, raising her hand. “Give me dumb ones, please. They’re so easy to impress.”
FWIW I didn’t really ever interpret Shallan’s fawning over Jasnah as an indicator that she was bisexual. Funnily enough in this same chapter (and others) Kaladin also seems to pay a lot of attention to Adolin’s looks/clothes but even that I also think is a kind of hero worship/compare-and-contrast that’s not necessarily about sexual attraction (although I could see how others might read it that way).
Rock is going to the land of his Gods. I think if we don’t see him in this book again, we will see him in night blood. He is going to the perpendicularity.
@Gepeto
I think you’re misreading Adolin’s character a bit here: he’s not perfectly untroubled here. There are lots of cracks showing that show he finds it difficult and uncomfortable when his wife’s body is occupied by another personality. There are indications that his relationship with Dalinar has changed – he no longer idolises him.
These changes might build up to big, dramatic scenes over time, or they might play out in a low key way but they are there in the book. The seeds are sewn and there’s a lot of novel left to watch them grow and flower.
Besides if Sanderson wanted to tell a story about a ‘perfect’ person breaking down under that pressure…it can’t come out of nowhere! They need to appear perfect for a while first!
It also seems like you have some very personal needs and expectations for the character. I understand how disappointing it can be if a story doesn’t go in a way that would deliver such a great, personally satisfying resolution and catharsis for you but it’s a hard and I think unfair way to judge a writer’s work. If it doesn’t play directly to your personal needs…well… it’s disappointing but it’s not actually a failure. And it’s not something you were owed by the author. It’s your expectation, and that’s your responsibility to manage.
@118 – You know, I didn’t even think about what she said. It felt like to me that she was trying to be “one of the guys.” You know, trying to fit in with Kaladin and Adolin. But thinking about it further, maybe there’s more there…
I find this particularly fascinating in the context of the last chapter’s header, where we realize that they aren’t aware of the complement metal to iron, which Mistborn readers know is steel. Why? Because in the real world, steel has a long and tragic history of exactly this. For 3000 years, (yes, really, it’s been around at least that long,) when some smith stumbled across the secret to making steel, they would keep it to themselves, a valuable, lucrative secret to be in possession of, and all too often the secret would die with them and need to be rediscovered by someone else so the cycle could start over.
But when the British smith Henry Bessemer’s 19th century steelmaking technique was developed, he lived in a different time. His government had a patent system, which required full disclosure and publication of inventions if you wanted protection for your work. And almost immediately after that patent expired, making the technique available to the general public, the Industrial Revolution exploded into the modern world. “Enriching the artifabrian steelsmith but impoverishing us all” held the entirety of humanity back for literally 3000 years!
I blacked out the WoBs because some people want to get information only from the books themselves, and I don’t choose to ambush them with extratextual information.
There is also the possibility that although Shallan may not “consciously” be bisexual, Veil might be.
Veil being ridiculously gay gave me life. Especially because I couldn’t squash the voice saying that Kaladin and Adolin could be gayer.
Grammatical mistake: “nowfamiliar” should be two words.
Gonna first post here just to disagree with all the “Adolin is too perfect and has no flaws crowd”. I hard disagree with this as my wife, mother in law, and son all have the “Adolin disorder”, and I’m guessing Sanderson is writing this character based on someone like them.
Adolin is very much not perfect. He’s what I consider a repressed doormat personality. These types are very kind hearted people struggling with an intense inner duty to always do what is right even if it means working their selves to the bone and being taken advantage of. The only way they can say no to anything ever is to have something heavier to override it. I suspect Adolin married Shallan out of a very strong combination of love, and duty to his kingdom, but also the perceived need to ‘fix’ someone. He’s probably equally attached to Kaladin because he feels a duty to fix them.
I see Adolin as the ‘type’ typically depicted as the kind hearted boyfriend/girlfriend that’s chasing after the jerk that keeps screwing up and can’t get their life together. They’re bottling up their own feelings, pain, and anxieties until they snap and do something drastic like killing Sadeas. You’d normally say, “It’s always the quiet ones that you never expect.” Adolin isn’t a ‘quiet one’ being as outgoing as he is, but he still fits the personality type.
I see a huge amount of undertext being written. There’s a husband that has to keep it all together while watching his wife (or her body at least) go drink and gamble and talk about other women. He’s covering up his pain with jokes and an outgoing personality, but at the same time seeking answers from Kaladin about how to reach out to her. His own feelings are all bottled up inside of him and he’ll use the responsibility of helping others as an excuse to keep from having to deal with them. Shallan has DID! Kaladin is PTSD! I can’t possibly deal with learning that my dad killed my mom right now with these important things!
Lots of people are seeing him as a very perfect character now, but we’ve already seen him snap and lash out once. I suspect we’ll see him either deal with his issues or snap and lash out again before the book is done.
@70 Gepeto: Thank you for opening up about how you feel, and why you relate to Adolin so much – and why your perception of him is the way it is. I’ve read your comments for a long time on these threads (years, at this point!) and I could never understand the where and the why of your devotion to the character. However, what you said today resonates – in my case, for Kaladin. I relate to him in many ways – but only to a point. After that point, he is not me – my experiences and my shaping in this world are very different to his.
My view is that we need to enjoy the experience of the characters we read, but always at a healthy distance – and not get to close / love our perfect image of them – or ourselves – especially before their story is complete – because it is ultimately folly. Because the characters are not perfect people – neither are we – and we all benefit from the shared experience of other people’s stories. Keep listening, reading, learning and growing. Remember it is fiction – a story. Something to think upon.
So many ways to interpret this! Suddenly I’m thinking of the Elantrian “death”. Is Rock going to become a Worldhopper?
@gepeto
So Adolin had half a glass of violet wine and he added embroidery to his uniform? Shocking. So that’s how he reacts to his father having killed his mother? By purchasing a uniform Dalinar would not like?
Wow, way to completely patronise me, miss my point, and belittle my character analysis all in one go. Of course “adding embroidery to his uniform and having half a glass of violet wine” is not Adolin’s only reaction to Dalinar accidentally killing his mother.
And no, its not shocking. That was the point. Character development doesn’t need to be loud and explosive to be present or meaningful. This is a strong implication of Adolin coming into himself, knowing and following his own mind regardless of what his father thinks. That is meaningful, it’s not meaningless at all. That is growth. That is something TWOK Adolin would never have even contemplated.
He’s embracing the things that are important to HIM. He’s developing his own code and method for leading his men outside of what his father wants or thinks.
And, in fact, it’s based more on his MOTHER’S influence, if you want to talk about her impact. Adolin’s interest in fashion – a traditionally “feminine” thing, to the point that he knows how to sew himself, strikes me as un-Alethi, but the kind of thing Evi would absolutely have encouraged. So is his far more familiar and personal style of leadership – definitely not the Alpha-male battlemaster style of the Alethi, but it works for Adolin because he’s Adolin.
It also makes me fear for how Sanderson will broach Maya. I really do not feel particularly strongly over Adolin happily and easily reviving Maya with the goodness of his heart. I think this could have worked with a lesser character, it works well with Lopen, but a viewpoint character? The one character who murdered a man? Who should have had a reaction more than quiet meaningless disobedience to his father?
Jasnah and Shallan have both in-canon, on screen, murdered 3 men apiece in cold blood and last time I checked they were both viewpoint characters.
I do have to wonder why this bothers you so much. Why does the idea of Adolin’s good heart reviving Maya bother you? Why is Adolin doing something no one in recorded history has ever managed to do such an afront to you? Adolin is the only person capable of doing this BECAUSE of his good heart. He’s the only one able to do this because he’s the only person who saw his Shardblade as something other than a weapon. He’s the only one who ritually had conversations with it, long before anyone understood it used to be a spren. He was the only one who treated Maya like a person, and not a thing, in Shadesmar, where even spren lock away deadeyes as though they’re objects. Why is Adolin accomplishing this without severe trauma and him being broken somehow “too easy” or not as worthy as Kaladin or Shallan’s arcs? Why does there need to be rage, and violence, and trauma, and suffering for him to earn Maya? Why isn’t his good heart enough?
I do also wonder about your description of Lopen (who is also a viewpoint character btw, in the series and the upcoming Dawnshard novella) as a “lesser” character. Why is that? Because he, like Adolin, hasn’t been broken by the world? Because he handles his trauma and the bad things that have happened to him with a smile rather than a scream? It’s okay for him to bond Maya without rage and violence because he’s “just a lesser character” so he’s allowed to react that way but a major viewpoint character like Adolin can’t possibly?
I get it. You related to Adolin and you feel he deserves a moment to break and express what you experience on the page. We all have characters like that. Good for you. But don’t imply that Adolin is poorly written, or is shallow, or is not as deep or important a character as Kaladin or Shallan because he explores his trauma in a different, and healthier, way.
And please stop implying/outright stating, because it’s not your personal taste or opinion, that Shallan, Veil, and Radiant should integrate, or that Adolin should leave if they don’t because he’s some poor, suffering soul unable to obtain happiness while he’s with them. They’ve only been married for a year, in the middle of the literal apocalypse. They’re allowed to still be figuring things out/not be perfect yet. But there are actual people with actual DID and actual partners who can read and this idea is being unfortunately frequently perpetuated in this comment thread (not only by you), and is cruel and harmful.
Something not being to your personal taste doesn’t give you the right to shit on other people’s interpretations/experiences, or put forward your views as valid literary criticism when it actually comes down to personal preference.
@130 very well said. I especially like your note how Adolin is especially influenced by his mother, I hadn’t thought of that before.
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@120 Alex. You raise a fair point. How much my feeling bummed over how I am perceiving this narrative will play is influenced by my personal feelings on the matter and how much of those expectations were directly driven from the narrative? I try to be as honest as I can possibly be. I am being very candid as to when my thoughts are influenced by my personal feelings, so I have been more than honest this week.
I loved the chapter, but it left me with a sad feeling as if I felt I had lost something. I am not asking for anyone to relate nor even to understand this, but it is a fair question to ask on how much comes from me, how much comes from misinterpreting the narrative, and how much comes from the narrative simply going in a different direction than initially predicted.
@127 Card. I wouldn’t qualify the character you described as “perfect” and it was Adolin, I wouldn’t say he is too perfect. The character you describe, I would expect him to snap, to lash out because no one can keep things bottled up forever, even the kindest gentlest soul has a threshold.
My issues are all you write is in the sub-text, it lies in how readers choose to interpret Adolin, but it isn’t necessarily where the narrative is heading. We don’t know if Adolin is ready to snap, is anxious, is feeling the strain: we guess that maybe he is, but there are no confirmation. All we see is how perfectly he is handling everything and how Kaladin finds him perfect. The one big moment that realistically could have made him snap has happened off-screen and caused no greater issues than Adolin changing his uniform and sipping half a glass of violet wine.
I love all you write and if Dalinar’s reveal hadn’t happened off-screen, I would have written the same, but it did. The big moment is gone. Adolin no longer idolizes Dalinar: the big development, the big shift, the snapping, it never happened.
This is why this week leaves me to believe this was all there ever will be about Adolin: he’s a great guy, strong, normal, healthy dude, but no more.
@128 Mark. Thank you. I have tried to explain to the best of my ability why I relate to Adolin or why I loved the character so much, but it is hard to find the right words nor to get the tone right. Too much and I sound whiny, not enough and it feels unimportant: it is hard to convey those thoughts. I am glad it resonated with you.
I absolutely agree we should enjoy characters from a distance… but sometimes, we get snared. I got snared. I didn’t plan for it, it just happens so while a part of me knows this has never been a good thing another one retains some attachment. I usually balance it well, but this week, I don’t know, the whole thing, I loved it, but it unbalanced me.
@130 Taryn. Apologies. I didn’t mean to come out so strong. I just do not feel what reaction we have seen from Adolin actually matters much.
> Why does the idea of Adolin’s good heart reviving Maya bother you?
Good question. Why does it bother me? I think that would be because it is too easy, too perfect: anything good comes out of hardship and hard work. A satisfying pay-off has to come at the end of a struggle and this does not sound like a big one. Adolin is already quite perfect as he is, I guess I just feel this denouement lacks progression and development.
I guess I just do not find it would be an interesting narrative. I’d rather all characters have interesting ones. I also wanted Adolin to get more layers and I don’t feel this narrative gives him many. It’d be fine if Adolin weren’t a viewpoint character.
> Why is Adolin doing something no one in recorded history has ever managed to do such an afront to you?
It is not an affront, just not a great turn-over if it comes out as easy. Adolin being good is easy: there is no hardship, no hard-won success. So if this is enough for Maya, then I guess I’d feel cheated over being told it was impossible.
I also doubt Adolin is the sole living human being to ever had a good heart nor to ever talk to his Blade. This is too much like the Chosen One trope where one character is born being so fantastic all great gifts are bestowed to him: it is hard to write a satisfying conclusion when the character lacks… an inner challenge.
Without a challenge, then yes it is easy. If I go out tomorrow and I run the marathon without preparation, then I make it look easy. Maybe I am a great athlete, but I have far more respect for the one who worked hard, trained hard, failed multiple times because this tale would be one of perseverance, and achieving a goal. The one that gets it on the first trial, that’s too easy to be interesting to read about. They haven’t proven they wanted it. There were no strains and stories are about strains if not, then there are no stories to tell.
Lopen is a lesser character because he is not a recurrent viewpoint character. He is not main character in SA nor in RoW. Adolin is a main character of RoW. This is why Adolin’s narrative needs to deliver a more throughout outcome than Lopen’s. It is just a matter of page time and prominence. I have said I would be fine with Adolin if he was a minor named character. The fact he has recurring viewpoints does raise the bar.
On Shallan: A few weeks ago readers admitting to a given Kaladin fatigue were accused of being insensitive jerks by others for not appreciating how the wonderful portrayal of his depressive moods. Are we truly going to move into a phase where readers admitting they would rather Shallan got rid of Veil/Radiant need to be attacked and called cruel? We are reading a fictional book focusing on fictional characters. A lot in Shallan’s arc, so far, has given hints Veil/Radiants are crutches Shallan will need to leave if she is to admit her final truth. Not all readers agree with this, this may not be the end game, but I do find there is a distinction between voicing out a personal opinion on a fictional tale and being cruel and harmful towards other people that might have a similar relationship and who could recognize themselves in Shallan/Adolin.
What gripes me over the relationship is Adolin is not OK with it, he does not want Veil nor Radiant into the mix, a fact Shallan is unable to acknowledge. Hence, if Shallan cannot get rid of Veil/Radiant, if this is to be her end game balance, then I do think Adolin should leave because he is not happy with it. He is not on board for a long-term relationship involving his wife spent most of her time being Veil. This week’s chapter implied Adolin seldom saw Shallan at all and mostly dealt with Veil. That is not OK from my perspective as a reader.
In shorts, Adolin does not want Veil nor Radiant. He wants Shallan so if Shallan can no longer be Shallan because 75% of her time is spent being Veil, then Shallan is more or less dead and gone. Adolin has no reason to remain married to her. This is how I am seeing it now. Thoughts can change with more chapters.
Anon @2. We will see. I think Navani has the personality of a Dustbringer. She likes to tinker with things and see how they work. Yet personally, she has a high degree of self-control. She is able to put a good front despite what she might think personally. See her thoughts when Dalinar started to drink again in OB. She took on the task of trying to keep the coalition together despite the fact that she was in pain over the apparent loss of her son. Also, see how she reacts publicly as Gavilar ignores his duties as king more frequently in the RoW prologue. I do agree with you however, that we will get the answer to this question (which, if any, KR Order Navani will join) by the end of RoW.
Carl @17 said “Kaladin says, ‘I am a surgeon.’ Not ‘was’ a surgeon. Hello, foreshadowing.” Nice catch. I missed that when I read the Chapter.
Gepeto @19. You and I are on opposite sides of the Shallan/Veil/Radiant storyline. You want an integrated singular person (be it one of the three, an amalgamation of the three, or a new 4th). Myself, on the other hand, wants exactly what you do not want. A person who has DID and whose multiple personalities find a balance so the unit can function on a day to day basis. We will see how this plays out and whether you or I (or neither of us) get our wish in this aspect. At least from my prospective, it will be fun reading however it plays out.
Taryn @22. Count me in the retain the multiple personas in a workable balance (which as of this point, it appears that The Three have for the most part achieved). We may be able to fit in a SUV with room to spare, but it will be a fine ride. #KeeptheThree.
Taryn @62 “many ways to shell a chull”. That is an excellent Rosharan saying. I hope Brandon includes it in a later Roshar book or novella. I wish I was clever enough to come up with that.
Gazeboist @87. Nice analysis.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Let’s imagine this from Adolin’s POV –
– He get’s back to Urithuru, only to find Syl, probably kinda frantic and upset because Kaladin, who he doubtless knows hasn’t been doing very well, is literally having a breakdown/panic attack , it’s hinted that this isn’t the first time this has happened either, which is worrying.
– He gets to Kal’s room, and he won’t answer the door, because, y’know, breakdown. He gets even more worried because he is a decent human being, barges in, finds his friend in a really bad way (y’know, burnt up uniform, no lights on, still flocked by exhaustion spren, probably looking in general like hell.)
– Manages to get Kal to straight up admit that him being left alone is a bad idea. Manages to convince him to come out with him so he can, y’know, keep an eye on his friend with severe depression and PTSD who was literally just told to go and kill himself (F*** Moash).
Ofc he puts on a mask and makes Kaladin his priority over dealing with his own, no less serious but definitely less immediate, personal issues. I’ve done the same as Adolin MANY times, that’s what ANY decent person does. You compartmentalise as best as you can because someone you love needs you more than you need them right now. That’s not being ‘unrealistically perfect’, or even ‘lacking in complexity’. That’s just prioritising. If Adolin had gone and dumped all his personal issues on Kaladin in this chapter I would have been extremely disappointed in him.
And personally, I find the subtle hinting and asking readers to look between the lines for what’s really going on with Adolin to make for a much more engaging read. Kaladin’s problems might be very in your face right now, but that 100% serves the purpose of highlighting and reintroducing us to other characters. As someone mentioned earlier – Kaladin is serving very much as an empathic mirror for other characters in these chapters. We’re seeing how they respond to a very obvious relational and emotional challenge through how they respond to Kaladin – e.g. Dalinar’s brusque focus on practicality and the bigger picture, Lirin’s TERRIBLE parenting skills, Syl still not really understanding the silly hoomans, Leshwi being kinda cunning and also honourable, Moash being the worst, Shallan’s increasingly troubling dissociation, and ofc, Adolin being the mvp he is and showing the fudge up when his friend desperately needs him to. Kaladin’s depression is serving a very obvious narrative function here, as difficult as it is to read. We are absolutely getting information not just about Adolin, but about Adolin’s relationships with his father and wife in this chapter, as well as the implication that the mask is getting harder and harder for him to keep up. I for one am glad that this book isn’t holding my hand.
Like, compare these two –
‘Adolin was mad at his father and had conflicted feelings about his wife’
or
‘Oh look, Adolin’s trying to be a supportive friend, and mostly succeeding because his super power is and always has been empathy, but if you look closely you can see that things are starting to slip.’
The second makes me much more interested to see Adolin and Dalinar’s POVs later in the book – it’s subtly hinting that things are not okay here and building the tension. We don’t need that with Kaladin – we know he’s a mess, he’s been a mess this entire time, same for Shallan.
Adolin is 100% not being portrayed as a Gary Stu here, and personally I found him to be incredibly compelling in this scene. To deprive him of the opportunity to show how good of a friend he is would be a disservice to his character – positive traits and strengths are just as important as seeing a character’s struggles. Imagine book 1 if all we saw of Kaladin was him being miserable as opposed to, y’know, working really hard to save AlL TeH PeOpLe. Moments like these are where Adolin gets to be a hero, and they’re just as, if not more, important as the big flashy action scenes.
I wish I head friends like Adolin. Or Veil, for that matter. Or Rock. And I don’t want Rock to leave this story. Wah.
Kaladin “likes smart girls” and doesn’t care what a woman’s height is. To hear some people tell it, this would make him a rare jewel in the dating scene here and now.
“And agonyspren, like upside-down faces carved from stone, twisted and faded in and out.” Nope, no thank you. I have a thing about creepy humanoid faces.
Veil (Shallan), you’re lucky you don’t know how it feels to have massive breasts. It feels incessantly uncomfortable.
On Adolin and Leadership:
As a soldier I can attest that there are a myriad of different, effective leadership styles and a number of variations within those styles. Dalinar and to a lesser extent Kaladin display that prototypical style most people would associate with good leaders. But just because Adolin doesn’t lead in the same way doesn’t make him a bad leader either. I can admit that the way Adolin leads leaves a thinner margin for error but people with Adolin”s personality type can make that razors edge look effortless. And he does. There is no indication of there being a lack of discipline in those he leads. Instead they strive to excellence because they feel known to their commanding officer. But the most telling indication of his leadership skills comes from Kaladin himself. Good leaders can spot other good leaders even when their styles vary widely. If Adolin were deficient in that area then Kaladin would have mentioned it. Furthermore, if he were not a good leader they would have never made it through Shadesmar.
I really like the idea of Adolin becoming a dual welding Radiant, Maya working together with a stoneward spren. I saw the Edgedancer traits bleeding off the page. The stoneward characteristics are more subtle but seem obvious once pointed out. I would love it if Brandon took it in that direction. It seems highly likely that Adolin will be special considering all the page time he gets. If all he becomes is an emotional support character then that’s fine cause he’s great in that role. I just feel that he is destined for more.
Finally Gepeto. I won’t claim to understand your very specific vision of Adolin but I can respect the view and how the story so far has not adhered to that view. I will not speak to that but I will ask this. If Adolin becomes more than that emotional support animal that you find boring, how would you feel about him? Because I see a crossroad coming up for this character that may be a slow burn. We know he can snap despite being a Gary Sue, he’s going to shatter again IMO. The cracks are already showing. You may not see them but I’m willing to bet that I’m not the only one who does.
So the multiple mentions of Veil gambling… she’s obviously the mole in Dalinar’s inner circle right?
Sidenote, I’m curious how Kaladin and Jasnah are getting along these days. Since their last on screen meeting was pretty bad, and Syl joked on this chapter that she’d probably turn him into a crystal, I’m guessing not great. But it seems like they’d be required to work together civilly and both are capable of being civil in general. I felt like their argument on screen was a bit much to be honest, but I can also see some people just getting under one’s skin. Jasnah does not suffer fools, and Kaladin is not a fool at all but at that point he didn’t suffer lighteyes, and neither had much context on the other. Since he’s had more than a year to have basically become one, and Jasnah has had more than a year to realize kakadin’s story and value to the cause, seems like their dislike should have softened. But perhaps his pain about failing Elhokar is wrapped up in his interactions with her now, as queen.
The current highest “ranking” radiants are shallan and kaladin. Radiants, if I recall correctly are usually “broken” in some way. I guess dealing with your mental health issues is something all 3rd ideal radiants might go through to reach the 4th and 5th ideals.
@129, Mason Wheeler:
Are we ignoring ELANTRIS SPOILERS? If you haven’t read Elantris and the rest of the Cosmere, you might want to skip the rest of this message.
(Roll over to read): Well, Elantrians don’t generally become worldhoppers. (Several have, but most of them certainly did not.) We have seen at least two Elantrians in this story, but mostly as Easter eggs. I’m not sure what you’re referring to, honestly, other than the fact that some people consider Elantrians gods, or false gods, on Sel.
The Unkalaki call almost any intelligent being other than “humans” and singers “gods” (e. g. Syl). It’s very hard to know what he’s referring to … which I’m reasonably sure is Brandon’s purpose this early in the story–it isn’t supposed to be easy to figure out 5% of the way in (or whatever).
Another parallel, perhaps, is Rock returning home dutifully to face punishment for a crime against his people’s beliefs, just as Szeth apparently did. Note that Szeth hadn’t actually done anything wrong, as the Herald Nale finally explained to him. Or is this an antiparallel? (End)
@120, 127, 130 & 138, I am also of the opinion that Adolin is cracking underneath it all. I think that’s one of the reasons we haven’t had his POV yet, because once we do, we will see that there is a lot going on in that mind of his, and like Kaladin, he is trying his best to not show it to others (including us the readers). I also think that yes, Adolin really is a nice, helpful, supportive person too. For some, that IS their coping mechanism.
Only 7 more preview chapters until the book comes out!
@wetlander – For the previous books you did reaction (in no particular order) articles that were fun to read. Will you be doing that again, along with a spoiler-free review before release?
Sometimes I wonder if I had telepathy, would I want to meet Brandon and satisfy my desire to know what happens, or would I purposefully stay away from him so it doesn’t spoil the experience?
@135 Andrew. That’s OK. If we all rooted for the same ending, the conversation would be boring. I would rather Shallan stops being Veil/Radiant, using whichever denouement is satisfactory, because I do not find the “balance” she has works, is healthy nor can last in the long term.
For instance, Adolin admitted he has seldom seen Shallan those last months. This implies Shallan spends more time not being herself which seems very wrong, even for real-life DID individuals. Hoid also implies, in OB, if Shallan learned to love herself, Veil and Radiant would lose their appeal. This tells me the end game may not be The Three, but Shallan realizing she does not need The Three. In fact, I would argue her problems start from the fact she started creating personas in the first place, hence the end game is not a precarious balance where she is Veil 75% of the time, Radiant 20% of the time, and Shallan whenever she is in the bedroom as it seems to be the case at the moment.
This being said, if Shallan’s end game is for Veil/Radiant to stay and if it is for the current balance to remain as is, then I think Adolin needs to get out of the relationship because he is not OK with it, but YMMV.
@126 Mmmm. This is a really good analysis, thank you for writing it. My perspective is while I do not mind we aren’t getting viewpoints for Adolin, right now, I worry the fact the Big Confrontation is not happening indicates there might never be a strong enough trigger for Adolin to start assessing his own issues. I mean, the underlining textual is great and everything, but it needs to serve a purpose. I am afraid now the confrontation will not happen, there will be no purpose.
So Adolin founds out the truth and he still does not react. He still is all smiles, casually drinking in taverns, waving to friends as if never happened.
@138 EvilMonkey. I do not think the narrative allows us to conclude Adolin’s leadership style is effective. It shows us it served to have people like him, but we haven’t seen him manage through tight ends with it, not yet anyway. I have my doubts he will get the response he needs if the stakes rise. My impressions are it works right now because all Adolin is doing is going to taverns and small-time stuff. He is just around waving at people, he isn’t fighting in dead or life situations where he needs complete obedience of his troops. We don’t even know if the people trust him as a military leader: they like him, but do they want to follow him into the battle or the Blackthorn?
This is why I do not agree the current chapter demonstrates Adolin is a good leader. it demonstrates he is good at getting people to like him, but being popular isn’t the same as leading. Now the two are not mutually exclusive, but we haven’t seen them merge, yet.
My views on characters, in a general manner, so not just Adolin, is they need to have a denouement, a trajectory, a path with sufficient hardship to make the read engaging. Adolin is a main character and this raises the expectations from say, a more minor character. Hence, Adolin’s supporting gig has to go somewhere else than him just being supportive. If it goes, then I will be pleased with it even if it does not fit what I initially wanted.
What bothers me is the implications his development might stop here and the one reason I feel this way is the fact the Dalinar confrontation is not happening. That was the event to send him over the edge and… it didn’t. Hence if something as bad and terrible as learning his prized father murdered his father does not trigger a stronger reaction than him changing his uniform, I doubt anything else would ever do. This lack of strong reaction towards something as terrible as this, involving the man he has idolizes all his life isn’t triggering hurdles, then nothing ever will. As far as narrative rules, characters that never react to events, always behave perfectly, they sound a lot like Gary Stus.
Hence, I need Adolin to react, to have more than subtext to indicate he might be thinking something. I loved this chapter, I don’t mind how it went down, I mind the implications Sanderson wrapped in it. In a few paragraphs, he transformed Dalinar’s book into a wet flare. If it weren’t for this one element, I would be holding a far different discourse. I would have loved Adolin in there, but this is the problem…
Sanderson decided the truth about Evi was not going to impact Adolin in stronger manners than him drinking half a glass of violet wine and decorating his uniform. Not only that’s a rather disappointing end game, we didn’t even get to react the moment Adolin finds out.
I thus wonder what it means for Adolin’s character arc and if he can still have a good one now all his triggers have served to nothing. And yes, I do consider Adolin needs a character arc and a character arc cannot be the status quo until the end and the status quo generated an outcome (such as Adolin reviving Maya without any change happening, without any hurdle, just “like that” because).
To summarize, I wonder where is the Adolin’s character arc and where can it go now the One Big Thing in his life caused no significant issues?
@Gepeto:
Actually, he says that this is because she hasn’t even been around most of the time due to her long undercover assignment.
Moderator: it’s a very small thing, but if you are going to edit my post (as you did) please say so somewhere. Don’t do it silently, I request. The edit is fine, I approve, but take credit for it.
@147: Your comment was whited out to remove potential spoilers from being visible. Nothing further was edited–we try not to edit any comments beyond spoiler-related issues. In the future, we’d ask that you try to white out any potential spoilers so that it’s not necessary for us to do so, and we can avoid this issue. Thanks!
@144, Carl:
I wasn’t ignoring that at all; that was specifically what I had in mind.
* He said he is going to go be with the Gods, and specifically named Hoid as an example. We know that Hoid is a worldhopper.
* There is a Shardpool (Cultivation’s, I believe) located in the Horneater Peaks. Shardpools are used by Worldhoppers to cross worlds, and Rock previously mentioned having seen Hoid come out of that one.
* Spoiler: We know from Word of Brandon that the Elantrian from that one scene who got “laid to rest” in Devotion’s Shardpool and the Elantrian Kaladin met in Oathbringer are the same person.
* He tells Kaladin that when they next meet, “it will not be in this world.” He follows up by clarifying “this life,” but that’s a perfectly reasonable mistake to make for someone who doesn’t know about Worldhoppers. To me, that really sounds like foreshadowing.
Sure looks to me like he’s going to be tried, sentenced, and thrown into the shardpool, and end up becoming a worldhopper rather than dying.
@@@@@ Gepeto
Fair enough. I will point out that Adolin is a ‘grieve later’ type of guy. He represses a bunch of stuff. I wouldn’t throw out the possibility of Adolin snapping and having that huge emotional response you’ve been clambering for just yet, for we’ve already seen it before, twice in fact. The first was the blow up that nearly caused Dalinar to abdicate back in WoK, the second was obviously the Sadeas affair. But we’ll see. Note that I’d like to see those scenes too. I’ll likely still enjoy it if I don’t get that scene but I don’t think I’ll have to miss that scene.
But back to Adolin’s leadership. We have seen the man in life or death situations more than a couple times. I have never read anything that would indicate to me that he leads badly or doesn’t get the very best out of the people he commands. His worse performance was the first tower assault and even then it wasn’t exactly horrible, just tired and angry and afraid for his father left him not at his best. But he won his plateau in the battle of Narak and nearly stopped the Everstorm, he led admirably during the Kholinar palace assault, he kept everything together in Shadesmar. Dalinar lauds his leadership skills even if he doesn’t like what he sees as fraternization. Kaladin finds it amazing yet effective. I don’t believe the narrative is showing Adolin as a bad leader, just a different kind of leader. Please trust me, the army has kinda hardwired me to watch for and analyze leadership traits in all walks of life. I would be crazy harsh on him if I thought that he was just an empty suit, no character or substance, only holding his rank by birth alone. Elhokar was a one such as this and though his death was tragic he was a crap leader. He showed signs of improvement but he was horrible for most of the time we’ve seen him.
Well, I don’t know about anyone else the comments and numbering are all kinds of messed up for me. I think yesterday evening may have happened twice.
I’ll address my remarks generally, rather than try and pin them as a reply to a specific comment.
Is it possible Adolin appears so perfect to some readers simply because he’s one of the few characters not dealing with some highly dramatised mental torment?
Kaladin’s being goaded towards either suicide or spiritual treachery by his ex-right hand man with whom he semi-conspired to murder the king while suffering from complex PTSD. Dalinar’s gone from being an amnesiac alcoholic to a world leader with the power to open a portal to a metaphysical realm via conversations with the next best thing to god. Shallan’s magic powers allow her to actualise her Dissociative Identity Disorder to the unprecedented extent.
Against such a dramatic heightened background, Adolin being a basically decent, caring bloke with a tricky relationship and some late-blooming parental issues basically disappears. Apart from that time he done a murder.
I think some people are also a bit quick to write off the challenge and drama in just being a decent person, one day at a time. Adolin *does* face challenges by keeping and caring for his shardblade – he’s told multiple times life would be easier if he gave it up and bonded a spren but he won’t do it. While his friends fly and change their faces, he stays on the ground, less able to fight, less able to lead. less prestigious, because he thinks it’s the decent thing to do. I think that is well worth portraying in books like this, and is a pleasure to read.
On Rlain: When Kaladin first ordered that spren to try and bond with Rlain, it set off alarm bells. On one level, it may have been meant to sound a little like the bit in all those cop-buddy movies where two officers who can’t stand each other are made partners and learn to work together. Also, I’d like to see Rlain become a radiant. But, the spren/radiant bond is a very personal one, and it really seemed like Kaladin crossed a boundary. Now, it seems like Kal was pushing it because he wants Rlain moved on, one more person he doesn’t have to take care of.
On Adolin: I don’t think we’ve skipped an important scene with Adolin and Dalinar anymore than we skipped an important scene when, in the first book, we went from Kaladin as a military commander to a branded slave. I think Adolin is in the middle of dealing with what all this means to him and that it’s not going to be a quick trip. Sanderson’s stories often deal with trauma at the point where the person is past the initial shock and has to deal with the problems down the road from that point, like Shallan and the aftermath of her dysfunctional family and Dalinar reaching the point where he had to deal with how his wife died.
Adolin’s been the strong one up till now. But, all of his close relationships seem to be with people who need his support. I think we’re going to reach a point where that isn’t working for him anymore.
I like Adolin the regular guy who cares about other people and supports them. I don’t want to see that go away. But, I think we’re going to see him reaching a point where he has to step back.
I also think that may tie into Kal’s journey. If Kal starts understanding that Adolin needs support or that he can reach a point where he needs to step back, maybe he’ll see how that applies to him (though, obviously, that’s just a guess, and Sanderson excels at blowing guesses out of the water).
When Adolin has problems he finds something to do to distract him. Taking care of everyone is a way to stop thinking of his own problems.
@155 birgit – that sounds highly plausible.
Given Kaladin’s current state and his general abilities I wouldn’t consider him best placed to read between the lines about Adolin. For example, when Adolin bluntly states to Veil “You’re not my wife” neither Veil or Kaladin take this very seriously but that’s unusually sharp for Adolin.
There’s also: “He’s human,” Adolin said. “Half the city thinks he’s some kind of Herald reborn, but he’s only a man. He’s been wrong before. Terribly wrong.”
Kaladin does think/comment on the fact that Dalinar killed his wife is now public knowledge but he doesn’t directly think/comment on how Adolin could be feeling about it all. But I certainly sense an underlying tension there from Adolin. I also get the sense that Adolin’s respect for his father has dropped considerably.
Shallan compared Adolin to his father a few times in OB but I think if she did that now Adolin would probably react badly. He would certainly not want to imagine killing Shallan for example. In turn, perhaps he’s keener than before to help her in some way, though he currently seems stuck. We had Radiant pretty much come out and tell Kaladin that Shallan is a ticking time-bomb with her issues – perhaps she’s told Adolin the same. (It’s kinda weird how the personas seem keener to solve Shallan’s problems than she herself currently does)
It’ll be curious to see if Kaladin and Shallan get involved with their respective problems at all. I doubt we’ll get some kind of literal group therapy session but maybe some kind of ad-hoc equivalent? Could be more interesting than a bunch of characters individually sitting around, navel-gazing about their respective problems at least.
It’d be interesting to know how much longer Part 1 will be. Will it end relatively soon on a cliffhanger or similar or have we barely gotten started yet? Either seems plausible.
While I understand people’s frustrations with Adolin’s character, it seems pretty obvious to me that the author is building him up to be an anti-hero. For Adolin’s eventual fall to have more impact, it has to happen later during the series, it would not work from a litterary point of view if it happens too early. I could be wrong but I think Brandon’s plan is to build him as the perfect guy, with paper-thin characterization until we reach his PoV later in the series which will completely hit us by suprise. Having more characterization of Adolin right now would just be a disservice to that.
Right now, he is this perfect character, who supports everyone around him, and represses his own feeling of frustration towards his wife’s emotional unavailability (Shallan is never around, she is being suppressed by Veil and Radiant), and towards his mother’s death. It seems to me that Brandon is building him up to be this incredibly perfect character, that will somehow fall halfway through the series, possibly during the book that takes his PoV. His conversation with Sadeas before murdering him, and the murder itself, seem to foreshadow that he will end up becoming evil in some way.
After having read a lot of Brandon Sanderdon, it seems to me either Adolin or Kaladin will be responsible for “destroying” the world sometimes during the series. The other will die a tragic, gruesome death. Right now my money is on Adolin for evil character and Kaladin for sacrifice/death.
The idea that Adolin is fine with Dalinar having killed his mother because Kaladin didn’t pick up on any problems seems to be overestimating the accuracy of Kaladin’s view point. Kaladin remarks in THIS chapter that Shallan seemed fine, and thinks being able to switch personalities would be nice. So its clear Kaladin isn’t always great on picking up on other people’s issues, and Adolin is very good at putting on a good face. And him no longer following the Codes is a big deal, even if the outward signs in this chapter didn’t amount to much. There’s clearly a lot more going on with Adolin than what Kaladin picked up on.
Adolin’s relationship with Shallan is likely based on many real people’s relationships with people with Dissociative Disorder. They’re in love with the main or original personality, and have different relationships with the other personalities. Adolin appears to be friends with Veil and coworkers with Radiant. Its not ideal, but Adolin is in love with Shallan so he’s willing to take what he can get.
The inner turmoil Kaladin is struggling with might be realistic, but is just plain dull to me and a retread of his book 1 arch. Brandon is an incredible writer and I doubt he will drag this out over the entire book or I will have to re-evaluate this as my favorite series. I think there are plenty of other central characters to flesh out with more interesting things going on then to retread Kaladin angst. Shallan has been my favorite character, because of her practicality and straightforwardness, but I don’t find the multiple personalities interesting in a main character. I would enjoy it more as a side show minor character or “bad guy” role. Disassociate personality disorder just doesn’t interest me. I find the magic system, ethical dilemmas and political intrigue much more fascinating. I’d rather have shorter books that don’t spend as much time on these aspects of the characters. I’m sure I’m in the minority and these are only criticisms from the prism of perfection. Incredible books or I wouldn’t get so attached.
I agree that Kaladin isn’t in much of a position to be attuned to the folks around him. He is barely hanging on.
For how Adolin is responding after learning what Dalinar did: He still has the responsiblity to be a soldier and there is only a certain amount of rebellion allowed, no way to escape that when your whole world is at war.He may be very unhappy about it but it WAS an accident and he may well see Sadeus as the real villan.
His personality seems perfect to be an ambassador to the Spren.
As for Veil, I liked that he told her SHE wasn’t his wife and she was quite rude brushing her body over him that way.I don’t like Veil very much.
BTW, since Veil has dark hair that is certainly Shallan in the cover picture.
I agree that Kaladin isn’t in much of a position to be attuned to the folks around him. He is barely hanging on.
For how Adolin is responding after learning what Dalinar did: He still has the responsiblity to be a soldier and there is only a certain amount of rebellion allowed, no way to escape that when your whole world is at war.He may be very unhappy about it but it WAS an accident and he may well see Sadeus as the real villain.
His personality seems perfect to be an ambassador to the Spren.
As for Veil, I liked that he told her SHE wasn’t his wife and she was quite rude brushing her body over him that way.I don’t like Veil very much.
BTW, since Veil has dark hair that is certainly Shallan in the cover picture.
@67: This is a really good point. Kaladin declined Rock’s tacit invitation to go with him specifically because he knew he’d end up challenging whatever punishment Rock accepts from the other Horneaters. He recognized that he has to let Rock live his own life and make his own choices. I really think this scene is the first step on Kal’s journey toward speaking the Fourth Ideal.
Rock is my favorite member of Bridge Four (yes, even more that Kaladin himself), and I’m sad to see him go. I hope he does show up in the main storyline again. It would be cool to see more of Cord, too. I know she has Amaram’s Blade and Plate; do we know if she also has the Bow Rock fired?
@70 Thanks for sharing your backstory. I cn now understand and appreciate your viewpoint more. I don‘t share. The new Adolin is closer to me. But I love how different we all are and how we love diffrent parts of Brandos books. For me Kaladin and his depression are closest to me. I loved this chapter by the way.
@152 EvilMonkey. I agree with your first commentary: Adolin has always been a “grief later” type of guy. I always thought this was a nice built-up for the moments where Adolin will not be able to ignore his grief: we saw glimpses of this when Dalinar gets sent to the sky by Szeth, in WoR. Adolin’s reaction is to rush after Szeth and he would have gotten himself killed had not Kaladin arrived in a timely manner. I always thought with the built-up in the last book, something had to give. Hence, the knowledge nothing has given away despite a bomb being dropped on him made me fear this was all we would ever read.
On leadership: I find it is difficult to assess Adolin’s skills as a leader because he provides us with both good and bad leadership examples. Hence, while he proved to be ressourceful and decisive at Narack, Shademar and the Kholinar palace, he proved to be stubborn, foolish and single-minded at the Tower, against Szeth, and in Thaylenah. I would also add his first battle as a military leader in WoK where instead of pushing forward a sound strategy, he settled for a youthful idiotic stunt of him standing on his sword that may not have ended in a disaster, but surely did not make his leadership shine.
I would argue all examples of good leadership came from situations where Adolin had a clear, well-defined mission goal and target to aim for: defeat those singers, exit the palace, cross the sea of beeds to reach land. All examples of bad leadership came from situation where Adolin has no defined goal, no command structure or little of it. In Thaylenah, he had no direct orders, no mission goal, so he made them up. His first instincts were spot on: he regrouped the men and orgganized the defenses. His next instinct was terrible: he went after the Thunderclast with the intend to single-handily defeat it. Once he realize he was not going to single-handily defeat it, he failed to retreat, preferring to sacrifice his life for no tactical gain at all. That was no good leadership as a good leader know when a battle is lost and will always retreat: Adolin struggles with this unless his mission goals are clear-cut like at the Kholinar palace.
Hence, Adolin hsa been both a good and a bad leader. My thoughts are he proved to be excellent… second in command or right-hand man. He execute orders well, he can lead well-defined operations, but take him out of the structure and he becomes single-minded, foolish, and makes fool-hardy decisions usually ending up in his premature death.
The chapter at end did not, in my personal opinion, shown Adolin being a good leader. We must remember he is a Highprince now, so his duties aren’t purely military, they are political too. Yet, we see Highprince Adolin indulge in a frivolious uniform, spending a lot of free-time is a lower class tavern, and participation to the engagement party of a tavern owner he did not know a few months ago. It isn’t as if Jor was a linfe-long childhood friend, he was a complete stanger, a tavern owner Highprince Adolin has so much free-time he has become a regular customer.
I can’t speak for all readers, but my outside perspective is Adolin is displaying the opposite of good leadership here. Sure, the people love him, who wouldn’t love him? But let’s remember we are seeing this from Kaladin’s point of view, we aren’t reading what the non tavern going populace thinks of their Highprince. We are seeing what a small percentage of people inside one single tavern think: they are happy, but I personally wonder how appropriate it is for a nation leader to spend a lot of time in such an establishment.
Adolin is supposed to rule the Kholin Princedom in what are dire circumstances. He lost his lands, his capital, his cities, and probably a fair share of its monetary income, and yet his priorities are a lower-class tavern… and a fancy uniform. I’d argue he is in the honeymoon period of his appointment and as the stakes rise, if Adolin cannot make the decisions that needs being done, even the unpopular one, the ones jor and company will not like, then things will go badly.
All of this is why I think while Adolin has shown good leadership in several instances, he has also shown bad ones. I think his flamboyance entry in the tavern was not an expression of good leadership, more of popularity just as I think it was most inappropriate of him. Occasionally visiting taverns is fine, but clues are Adolin is not just occasionally visiting taverns, he spends a lot of time there and always on the lower class ones. I’d wager the ruling class is not going to cheer on him when he next walks into the counsil room, providing he even shows up.
@154 Ellynne. Part of what is bothering me is the “caring” type of person often end up fragilized by their constant nurturing of other people. The inability to say no, to take personal time, to prioritize oneself often leads to far greater problems as anything in excess, even good things, tend to be bad.
I personally find the amount of dedication Adolin has towards everyone, his desire to fix what isn’t his to fix, should logically drive him into a wall because this isn’t a task he can succeed at. He will not be able to fix neither Shallan nor Kaladin because only they can do it for themselves.
A lot of people with this personality type end up in burn-outs. It would be realistic for Adolin to follow a similar curve.
@155 birgit. It is. But at some point it has to pan out into a plot point. My issues is I fear it won’t.
@156 Chris. I agree Kaladin does not think of what it means to Adolin to having found out his father murdered his mother. I found it odd because while Kaladin is not super perceptive, he would usually have caught on that as he is an emphatetic individual. Hence, I thought the lack of response from Kaladin meant Adolin never displayed much unease over this fact. Thus Kaladin took it all was fine.
@159 Tom. I think Adolin pulls up with Veil and Radiant because he loves Shallan, but he believes he will fix her and they will go away. He obviously hates Veil. His sharp comment was rather telling: she is not his friend, he hates her, but he tolerates her. This is why I do not think the relationship can last in the long-run if Shallan keeps on being Veil most of the time.
In other words, Veil needs to go. She is too dominating. She rules Shallan. She’s the one calling the shots. Adolin hates and distrusts her. If she stays and keeps on being as prominent as she currently is, I cannot see the relationship work.
@164. Flo. Thanks. We take what we can get even if it isn’t a good fit.
On the side note: I want to thank the moderation team for doing outstanding work out of making sure all opinions can co-exist without unwanted personal attacks. I appreciate the work done here and the possibility to voice out opinions not all will agree with but have value too.
On another side note: I want to thank all readers who have taken the time to express their views on Adolin in this chapter, on how he is really dealing with events. Many of you have given me a lot of food for thought and I may have been too hasty in some of my comments. I think is the tangential many of you have alluded does materialize itself, RoW will be an amazing book and yes, even if it isn’t exactly what I wanted, I may end up really enjoying the Adolin narrative.
I’m not particularly impressed of how big revelations have happened off screen without any evident repercussions affecting characters one year later. And I’m talking about Adolin finding out that his father killed his mother and that Shallan killed her parents and that Adolin killed Sadeas. I don’t know man, it seems like those things were kind of important to be completely brushed off with two lines of text.
@167 – Again, this could just be a symptom of not having the whole book. Not going to beat a dead horse about my opinion on whether these preview chapters are a good thing to do, but we don’t have the full picture yet. Let’s see how the rest of the book shakes out and see if Adolin does have an issue with his father.
@@@@@ Many re: Adolin & Dalinar
One thing we can say about these two men is that they are stoic and resilient. We have not gotten their POV’s. They appear a certain way to other characters. Meanwhile, internally, they could each be spending 90% of their time ruminating on Dalinar’s book and their relationship.
Adolin definitely sounds like he’s pissed off, and in typical Adolin fashion, has latched onto helping others to ignore his anger and his inability to reconcile his love for his father with the fact Dalinar killed Evi.
@168 It’s just such a huge difference of handling characters, that on one hand you have a guy that’s on the verge of self destruction because he feels unnecessary responsible for loved ones dying and on the other hand having actual murders left unpunished just because ‘it fits the plot’. Sadly, I can’t take this seriously anymore. It just doesn’t make much sense.
@157, Flo:
I don’t agree. There’s nothing evil in what Adolin did. Sadeas was a traitor who was openly boasting to him of his plans to commit further acts of treason and murder in the future. He was also unaccountable due to his high societal status. Given the circumstances, Adolin took the most morally correct action he possibly could have.
@172 I agree. The fact that Adolin killed Sadeas is mostly considered a good thing except from Dalinar due to his adherance to the codes and what he wanted from Adolin. Pretty much everyone who wasn’t part of the Sadeas cabal just said “good riddance”. These are the Alethi nobles, killing and assassination are their way of doing things Just look at how Sadeas betrayed and tried to kill not just Dalinar but his entire army..
What can you do when someone above the law says he intends to ruin your entire family? And Sadeas was older and no innocent to fighting, Adolin barely won. It’s not like he turned on someone unable to fight back.
Also, this was in no way a “cold blooded’ murder. It was a spur of the moment highly provoked murder. Jashna is more the cold blooded murder type, and again, not much of a standout in the Alethi culture.
@62 Taryn,
Loved your post. Very reminiscent of the good days of Wheel of Time re-reads when Alice (Wetlander) would post excellent long posts defending less well liked (to put it mildly) characters.
@173 Yeah, Jasnah is the one who really worries me.
Sometimes it feels like an informal rule that every principal character in Stormlight must have some sort of mental problem. In the case of Radiants, it’s even a formal rule; per WOB, a spren can’t bond to someone who isn’t “broken” mentally in some way. And Jasnah’s issue sure looks like “pro-social psychopath” to me. This is someone whose go-to solution to every problem we’ve seen her confront so far has been murder or the threat of murder… and now she’s Queen of Alethkar.
That’s really kind of horrifying when you think about it!
By all means everyone can have whatever opinion they wish, but just a point of clarity. Jasnah did travel to the alley but at no point were those men under any force or duress to:
1: trap Jasnah and Shallan
2. Approach Jasnah
3. Attempt to stab Jasnah
All that was before any response on Jasnah’s part. Also we have numerous examples of when Jasnah, despite all evidence (and in two cases she should have, Aesudean and Amaram), she has held back.
So TDLR, love or hate her, that is what happened in the books.
@160 Snoozefest – I had similar issues with Kaladin as a character in OB and at the start of this book: too much navel gazing and not enough development. So it was a big relief when Dalinar stepped in as it now feels like we’re finally going to get some actual development.
I was very happy with all the characters in tWoK but Shallan stood out as being especially unique and interesting. I was happy to see this built upon in WoR. Like you, I was not happy with the changes in OB – a good example of how adding extra attributes to a character can subtract from them overall. I like to imagine various things characters could do, either in future books or in a fan-fic style setting, but I couldn’t do this anymore with Shallan at the end of OB since her character had been muddied too much.
I enjoyed things like the philosophical discussions between Shallan and Jasnah in tWoK. I think the magic system of the Knights Radiant tying into their personalities and growth to be very interesting too. What I would like more of though is a better justification for why an individual Knight Radiant might want to go up a level since it’s often painful. There’s too much focused on the big level up scene (and the lead up to it) and not enough on the follow-up. For example, Pattern’s whole reasoning for forcing Shallan to level up at the end of WoR is never properly justified, I would say – we get no clear indication of what abilities Shallan gained purely from the level up and which she got simply from improving in general. It actually feels like Shallan would have done better without the level up and the associated consequences. I suspect this is technically wrong but with no in-text justification we can only speculate in frustration.
I don’t want to make this post about my gripes with OB so I’ll just add some other things I’d like to see in RoW that I felt was missing from OB:
Better late than never but I would like some explanation of how Shallan’s religious side went away as if it never existed. I might have missed something after turning away from the fan discussion for the last 2-3 years but I’m amazed nobody seems to care about this.
I’d like to see more interaction between all the major characters. I felt this was a natural expectation after the major characters finally came together at the end of WoR. To give a simple example: by most cultural standards, Shallan should now be Dalinar’s daughter-in-law and he should be her father-in-law and that could be an interesting dynamic to explore for them both. Ditto many other options. I was very happy to see the interactions in the latest chapter because of this – I hope there’s plenty more and in different settings and with different characters.
The Radiant persona has been woefully underused and her continued existence has not been properly justified. Early signs of this are good as she seems to be the combat specialist of The Three, but we at least need multiple serious examples.
We’re way overdue for something serious happening with the Ghostbloods. Fingers crossed that Shallan’s next meeting with Mraize kicks off an intense mini-arc that has a number of consequences for several characters.
We’re way overdue for something serious happening between Dalinar and Adolin. I don’t mean a fight or a breakup but something genuinely tense. The suggestions that Dalinar might forcibly lean on Adolin to unbond Maya in order to get a Radiant bond going seems like a good starting point for this.
We’re way overdue learning more about Soulcasting. And a proper dive into spren politics and why the Honorspren and Cryptics have an antagonistic relationship and why people should avoid Cryptics. Hopefully the eventual Shadesmar trip can at least address the latter parts.
Can Shallan please have an “awesome” scene that isn’t overshadowed or undermined one way or the other. It sometimes feels to me like Kaladin and Dalinar get all the sfx budget and Shallan gets the dregs, despite being the Lightweaver (sfx specialist).
Well, this post is getting quite long so let’s leave it there for now.
Does anyone get the impression Rock is going to end up a world hopper? Between him saying they won’t meet again in this world and having Wit mentioned in the same breath as justice from his clan, I think we’re seeing him move on to bigger things. I’m probably wrong but it sounds like that would make a nice novella that would have needed to be pushed until after this book.
I disagree that Shallan gets a small sfx budget if you will. The confrontation with Re-Shepir, the Girl who Looks Up, the million image army from the Battle of Thaylen City, I mean how much of a sfx budget are you looking for? There may be something to the idea that Kaladin and Dalinar get a bigger budget but the key difference is that part of Shallan’s effectiveness lies in her concealment. It can be argued that she’s least effective to the Radiance when she’s forced to be flashy.
@179 EvilMonkey. I think what @177 Chris is alluding to is the fact Shallan’s great moments of success have often not carried the same emotional charge nor narrative impact as Kaladin and Dalinar’s great moments. Hence, while the Girl who Looks Up was a fantastic chapter and while the confrontation with Re-Sephir was crucial, those scenes still aren’t as memorable as Kaladin climatically saving the Kholins or Kaladin climatically fighting a big bad foe or Dalinar’s “You cannot have my pain” moment.
Also, for years, Shallan has been bashed on, trashed by given fringes of the readership. On the 17th Shard, they have a “Shallan’s disgust” thread that is *still* active. On Reddit, a week never goes by without one reader starting, yet another, “I hate Shallan” thread. She is a fantastic character, incredibly interesting, but she has also been a hit and miss with the readership and for those who enjoy her character, it is difficult to navigate through the negative push-back.
It makes you want Shallan to have a climactic moment of the same narrative importance as Dalinar’s great moment just to flatten the hate and make her character positively memorable.
It does not help the personas arc was also a hit and miss within the readership and now it is split into two halves: those who plead real-life DID should not have reintegration as an end game and those who want Shallan to get this climactic moment where she becomes whole once again because she’s long overdue to get it. There are the readers who want Shallan to be the poster-girl for all real-life cases of DID and, as such, should keep on hobbling between Veil and Radiant and those who feel character development has to bring her past those crutches.
It is a tricky balance, but the idea Shallan hasn’t had moments as significant and powerful as Kaladin and Dalinar isn’t new. My hopes for RoW are Shallan will have her Big Moment and my hopes are this moment will be the one where VeiL/Radiant disappears for good because I find both are a problem, Veil especially, who’s controlling and reads as if she had taken charge of Shallan without Shallan realizing it.
Other readers carry different hope, but for me, a balance between Shallan/Veil/Radiant being the end game would disregard the rules of character development where a known problem has to be solved. Right now, Veil/Radiant are a problem because they represent Shallan’s inability to deal with her past: the arose to avoid her having to deal with the pain that came with remembering. Hence, if she cannot accept the pain and learn to love herself, the last truth will shatter her for good as thousand of personas destroys her.
The personas are a problem. They need to go or else Shallan will be destroyed. Those are my personal thoughts.
I would also add just imagine what could happen if physical illusions does become a definite thing. If Shallan was able to control hundreds of semi solid illusions all doing unique interactions with cries of pain and blood to keep the soldiers distracted, imagine just two or three? She could have pet whitespines that shred through the enemy, randomly growing wings to fly and take out heavenly ones, or tentacles to whip or grapple general enemies. That also is counting the potential of off loading some of the cognitive load to pattern. Possibly have him fully control an illusion Shallan creates. Full on “summoner” build. Or a true “shapechanger”. Put an illusion over yourself, and grow wings, claws, tentacles, extra arms, extra legs. The applications are practically limitless.
I’m sorry but this novel has been utterly boring from the start with the exception of the Venli chapters and Navani ones. I’m sorry but Kaladin being depressed is not engaging at all and it doesn’t really make a whole lot of sense given all his powers and where he is in life. I just don’t care. I want to learn bout the war and what’s happening. Or the history.
@179 EvilMonkey – it seems like it’s worth expanding upon the point I was trying to make.
I should add the caveat that these sorts of things can be highly subjective – I’m not saying this is the only valid way to interpret things, it’s just how I feel. Shallan can be a frustrating character to like as she’s so negative about herself, so it would be nice if the narrative counterbalanced that a bit more. But it’s not like I want all characters to be equally “awesome” or fulfill the same types of roles. It’s fine that some roles are more behind the scenes and some are more on the front lines.
We can probably agree that Shallan doesn’t get any “awesome” moments in tWoK, though she does get some dramatic moments.
She does get some dramatic moments for sure in WoR but many of these are not particularly heavy on the sfx or pure “awesome” moments. There’s the events when Jasnah “died” but I wouldn’t consider Soulcasting the boat to be “awesome”. One particularly notable scene is when she converts the deserters but it’s not heavy on sfx (just a wardrobe change) and also undermined by not really ever being explained and just feeling a bit fishy. During the end climax scenes Shallan basically just opens a magic door, pretty low key compared to flying around in a highstorm while battling an assassin or bonding the Stormfather.
You bring up some examples from OB. For the confrontation with Re-Shepir, that would have been exactly what I wanted except that it’s overshadowed and undermined immediately – the very next chapter is a showy and sfx heavy one from Kaladin and also, just as Shallan is starting to feel good about herself again it’s undermined by the return of Jasnah. This is not a complaint about the other characters – it just would have been nice to have more of a gap between those events.
“The Girl who Looked Up” is a lovely chapter but it has no impact on the plot or character development by itself. It’s more of a demo, or foreshadowing, or a stand-alone story within a story.
For the Battle of Thaylen City, her efforts are overshadowed by Dalinar and Jasnah – other characters are going wow at what they’re doing but nobody goes wow at what Shallan is doing. It’s also undermined by Shallan just standing there having to go through a lot of pain. It doesn’t really make you feel good about it as it feels like she’s falling apart, which is pretty much the case.
I do have my fingers crossed for RoW. Given that she and Adolin seem to be the only major characters in her group during the Shadesmar trip, there’s much less chance of another character stealing her thunder. I suspect it’s also the second major plot so should have some kind of dramatic climax by itself. Hopefully an awesome one for Shallan (or Shallan and Adolin together). If she does reach the final level in this book it should be the first time we see it and hopefully it’s a bit special. I dunno if doing it in Shadesmar will make any difference. Other options are available of course.
I know I’m late to the party, but I’m surprised by one thing no one has brought up about Adolin’s reaction to Dalinor being responsible for Evi’s death. And that is the fact that we, the audience, have not read Dalinor’s autobiography ourselves. We’ve read the preface and that’s it, so I feel like it’s hard to judge people’s reactions. Yes, we can assume what much of the content it, but we don’t know it all or what Dal says about it, and that’s really important for how people react to it. One point Dal makes (I think to Taravangian, maybe Fen?) is how differently he views actions made in his youth after having time to reflect on them, and I feel like if his reflection on his actions, his remorse for things he’s done, and the wisdom he’s gained through those trials really shows through in his autobiography it would be easier for others to accept it.
I’m not saying it would be easy, particularly for his sons, but since the revelation came a while ago it’s hard to tell. It’s not the kind of thing you just get over, but as others have said Adolin is good at compartimentalizing, and focusing on the immediate issues. He may have already had a big fight with his father about it (if so I agree that I wish we’d seen it), or he may need time to sort out his own feelings on it before having that talk.
I’m also curious on if Adolin having felt the Thrill himself (and how different battle is without it) has any impact on how he views the situation. Because while Dalinor was right to claim responsibility for his own actions and not let Odium have that pain… well, the Thrill certainly had an influence on them and I’m really curious if his autobiography discusses that aspect.
I don’t understand why some of you want Shallan to be a superhero in the Kaladin mold. She ain’t that kind of character. She tried to be that in Kholinar and it…didn’t end well. She’s not the up front hero type. Take her actions in Thaylen City. Jasnah may have looked cooler, Kaladin may have looked more heroic, Dalinar may have looked more powerful, Szeth more dangerous, but Shallan was the most effective person on that battlefield. Not only did she hold off an entire army by being a Radiant Re-Shepir, her illusion with Honor’s Drop was just the distraction needed to run the Fused off. I never have graded Shallan’s moments of awesome by how flashy they are. I grade them on effectiveness. Many of those people who like Shallan do so because she isn’t a typical protagonist, as I imagine quite a few that hate her. I think Brandon shows that trying to shoehorn her into a typical protagonist role doesn’t work for her. I for one want Shallan to be Shallan, however that turns out. I don’t want her to be a Kaladin clone (Veil).
How about Jasnah returning from the apparent dead off screen, and we seeing no one’s reaction to it? Brandon is a very cerebral, analytic writer. He has to be doing this on purpose.
I am befuddled when I see comments saying there was not much progression in this chapter, and people want to know what is going on elsewhere on Roshar. Don’t worry – I’m sure we will get there! Its still early chapters in a (big) book.
Sanderson is a deliberate writer. He’s had a long time to plan and work on this. The chapter is there for a purpose. It clearly sets up a lot of things, and there’s a lot bubbling under the surface.
The fog of war is a real consideration too. with spanreeds made inoperable with the arrival of the screamer odium spren anywhere on Roshar, its likely that large areas of the continent are dark to our protagonists and they have to rely on old fashioned comms channels to make their way across invaded / occupied territories. Catching up in drips and drabs of info is natural.
But – as for character progression – there is so much going on here between the lines. Adolin is clearly at odds with Dalinar, at least in some respects. Rock makes an exit, stage left. Kaladin is breaking down (and the writing in this chapter his so sensitive, and so well done – addressing the effects of depression and treating it realistically is no small feat). Meanwhile, Shallan is in the process of cracking like an egg.
What strikes me is that Kal and Shall were the first of the new radiants – and – here’s a worrying thought: maybe they are simply the first of the new batch to get worse?
Is “getting worse” a price of the nahel bond? We don’t really know yet – the current era Radiants are still figuring things out. And their Spren can’t really tell them as they do not truly understand the full human experience.
Now – keeping this in mind – lets think about a couple of things that we’ve seen in the books prior.
(1) In TWoK: In Ch19 (Starfalls), in Dalinar’s vision – after he fights off the smoky monsters with demonstrable skill, the knights say something to him towards the end of the vision:
This is the line that backs up my thought that the Radiant Orders of old had methods to guide soldiers in war, and also the knights radiant, as they wrestled with their progression through their ideals. What were these teachings?
(2) Next thing – In WoR: Consider the hidden gems that were found in the big fabrial room in Uruthiru. The knights’ messages recorded in the gemstones were very ordinary, very human thoughts. You might even say they could have been innermost thoughts. Some were grim and dark. It is also telling: They did not record any advice for the future. They could have, if that had been what it was for – so why didn’t they?
I’ll go out on a limb and say the gemstone messages were almost like prayers. The question here is… Why are the knights offering up their darkest thoughts and wishes in this way? Why do it? How does it help? What is the purpose? And – was it a coincidence they were found with the tower fabrial? Why? How does that link back to the tower fabrial?
The reason I’m asking: If it helped any way, maybe whatever (and why?) they were doing it, perhaps it could help Kaladin and Shallan?
I don’t know if this theory holds any water. I know I’m clutching at straws. But I know Sanderson plays a long game. I’m keen to see where it all goes.
Closing the loop on my thought track here: knowing Brandon through his writing, I am sure that we needed to see the relationships, and the mental toll of the war, and the effects of the last year on our characters at this point in the book. And I’m sure things will get worse before they get better – the book has only just started, right?! Just keep in mind: its all set-up from a master story teller who has had years to think this through – and I think it will make whatever payoff is coming later that much more impactful and rewarding.
I remember reading in an earlier chapter something about the “Shallan” personality actually being a lie as well. It’s basically made up like Veil and Radiant. And in Brandon’s interview about Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin he said “Shallan has made her choice. I wouldn’t expect that to change”. Key thing here is SHALLAN. At that point, we all took Shallan to be the original personality and so all three personalities agreeing with her decision to end up with Adolin made that decision final. With the knowledge now that Shallan is also a personality she created to cope, I believe this means that Adolin isn’t actually married to who he thinks he is. I think they don’t end up together in a few more books.
@187 EvilMonkey – I’m not sure if you’re referring in part to my comments in @177 at all where I said this:
So, to be clear: when I said Radiant might be the combat specialist persona that doesn’t mean I want Shallan overall to be a combat specialist. As I said in @185:
Shallan’s behind the scenes role is putting herself in danger at times. At a minimum she would need some self-defence skills. I don’t get the sense that Shallan is training regularly but she should have at least learnt the basics given that Adolin started giving her lessons over a year ago.
Dalinar has had a number of plot significant stand-alone “awesome” moments that aren’t combat related. No reason why Shallan can’t at least get one plot significant stand-alone “awesome” moment, whether combat related or not.
I feel that too many of my posts have been backward looking so here’s one forward looking post with some speculation. This is not a prediction, it’s just one possible extrapolation based on current knowledge. I wouldn’t be at all bothered if none of the following occurs.
The starting point of this is a paragraph near the end of chapter 9, from Shallan’s POV:
Shallan has not committed to doing something but it certainly feels like foreshadowing – that we should expect a meeting with Mraize within a few chapters at least and that it’s possible that Shallan will try to break things off. Hopefully Shallan won’t be naive enough to think that could be done without any risk to herself. I suspect it’s highly likely that at the meeting either Shallan will make the first move or Mraize will make some request that Shallan cannot accept – that either way, the stakes will be raised.
I have no idea what Shallan’s condition will be by the end of this book but if she’s going to reach the next Ideal/Oath/Truth by the end we’ll need to start seeing some real progress very soon, like early on in WoR (the illusion of perception). While Shallan doesn’t currently see her personas as a problem, she clearly identifies the Ghostbloods as one and keeping the truth from Adolin is hurting her. If she can tell the truth to Adolin in advance and can start to break free from the Ghostbloods then that would be real progress for her, even though it might put her at more physical risk. If Shallan can at least make progress in one area then that should help motivate her to tackle her other issues and we could also say the same for Kaladin.
So here’s a rough and highly speculative sequence of events for how we could get some progress on Shallan’s issues, and possibly others:
1) Shallan wakes up the next day and finds a note from Mraize telling her to meet him at a specific place and time.
2) Shallan decides to tell Adolin and asks him to be on stand-by to step in, very much like the situation when she was going around in disguise while hunting Ialai previously where Adolin was also on stand-by. She could use the same partial summoning trick with Pattern to show him her location. If Shallan basically phased the situation as “I accidentally got into this mess and I need some help to get out” then I think Adolin would be quite receptive.
3) Optional: one way or another, Kaladin gets involved. It’s possible that he decided to accompany Adolin back to their rooms for a more private chat, or possibly Adolin goes to talk to Kaladin after his discussion with Shallan. I think Kaladin would be willing to help since it’s much better than sitting around doing nothing and if Adolin phrases it as something like “please help me protect Shallan” then it would be something positive Kaladin could do – ie might help Kaladin with his current low state.
4) Shallan goes to meet Mraize. I suspect she’ll try to pry some info from him. I’ve no idea what Mraize will have prepared – I’m sure there’ll be something Shallan wouldn’t have predicted. But let’s say that for one reason or another that hostilities break out. Shallan summons Pattern and Radiant takes over for the fight. Adolin and Kaladin use the summoning hint to locate Shallan (they’d have a rough idea of where she is already, most likely).
5) There’s too many unknowns to predict how such a fight could develop, but let’s say that the end result is that Mraize gets away and Shallan is safe. Perhaps one or two Ghostbloods members are captured or killed. Not a perfect result but let’s say that Shallan and Kaladin both feel a bit happier.
6) The group goes to report to Dalinar and Jasnah, and also discuss what to do next. They pool their knowledge about the Ghostbloods and decide to do a general hunt for them and any spies. (There’s also the spy Ialai had near Dalinar and whoever the Ghostbloods have amongst Shallan’s group)
7) While they do ultimately catch some spies the Ghostbloods mostly get away (vacate Urithiru for now basically). On a personal level Shallan is feeling happier with herself and a bit stronger and Kaladin has also recovered somewhat back to normal (for him).
End of Part 1.
So, while there would be some tense parts nothing TOO dramatic occurs but there is some progress. I skipped over a bunch of stuff and made some assumptions because there’s just too much we don’t know and I don’t have the imagination to fill it all in. It’s not like I would expect the above to be the only things going on either – I’m sure Navani and Venli will get some more chapters. I also fear the above sounds a bit too good to be true but it’s more to give a rough shape to my current thinking on what could happen soon as a mini story arc.
Anybody else get big Mr. Peanutbutter and BoJack vibes from Adolin and Kaladin? I couldn’t stop grinning after the thought came to me.
I’m afraid I’m responding too late for anyone to see this, but just in cases…
sasuther @@@@@145 – Yes, indeed, I do plan to do the random reactions post, and hopefully a non-spoiler review, as well as a full-spoiler discussion and a handful of other odds and ends. Releases are so much fun!
Kaboom @@@@@174 – Cadsuane FTW!! :D
Mason Wheeler @@@@@175 – “In the case of Radiants, it’s even a formal rule; per WOB, a spren can’t bond to someone who isn’t “broken” mentally in some way.” Not quite. People on Roshar perceive that to be the case, but in truth, they merely need to be open to the bond. There are ways other than mental illness.
@@@@@ many – It’s been said so many times: you cannot legitimately be disappointed with a character’s arc for the entire book based on less than 10% of the chapters. Complaining about what you’re afraid will happen is pointless because, in most cases, you’re completely wrong anyway.
I absolutely love the friendship between Kaladin and Adolin. Ok, I know this is kind of a late post for this chapter, but does anyone else get any strong Zach Morris/AC Slater vibes with their friendship. I’m not saying their characters, motives, attitudes are the same as Adolin or Kaladin. But, I like the similarities with them both being wary of one another initially then eventually becoming genuine friends. I mean, if “preppy” was part of the vocabulary on Roshar, I could totally see Kaladin saying it to Adolin (not saying Kaladin is Slater or Adolin is Zack). Just had to get that out as I’ve thought this about their relationship since the middle/end of words of radiance.
I did like this chapter.
I felt shivers during the conversation betwen Kaladin and Adolin.
I thought “this is friendship in its most pure form!”
Maybe because I read from chapter one to this one in a single afternoon.
But we must not focus ourselves in a single moment of fragility of Kaladin. Most of the time he puts a front, and is there for everyone else. Adolin is just a very close friend and see past that facade. And I suppose that he remains grateful because he owes his life to Kaladin.
I don’t see him as flat, simply more guarded.
But I do like the development he is showing.
Greetings to all of you!
This is not a new thing. Remember, in Oathbringer it was Adolin who kept Kaladin going during his crushing depression after the fall of Kholinar. Syl didn’t randomly pick Adolin, she had already seen him help Kaladin when she and Shallan were helpless. Adolin knows how to handle people with mood disorders and people who have been told they’re useless because of health problems … as the son of Dalinar the alcoholic, brother of Renarin the faux-epileptic misfit, and cousin of Jasnah who was once confined in the dark for a long time due to “lunacy.” He’s very used to being the strong one for people in times of need.
I was excited to scroll down and read comments and shocked to see so much negative.
This chapter was so powerful, the handling of depression, the prior set up of Adolin being so in tune with the mental health issues of those he loves- hinted with Maya. I’m just really impressed and happy to see some of these issues really being vocally addressed this way in story. I recommend Stormlight to many friends who deal with mental health issues and particularly depression. So I am moved to see it still getting the care it deserves. How wonderful to have such a human story told in such a fascinating cosmos!
I know this post was from 3 years ago, but I’m coming back and reading these and the re-read in the leadup to the next book at the end of the year. I agree with the commenters that feel the serialised release of the chapters is the reason why there has been so much negativity in the comments. I read ROW for the first time this January and raced through the book in a week! I definitely didn’t have any issues with the pacing and don’t feel that any of the characters were overused or underused. But if I had had to read the book chapter by chapter it would have dragged simply due to the nature of having to wait to continue.